The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session this afternoon. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Russell George.

Energy Costs

Russell George AC: 1. How is the Welsh Government supporting households who are facing increasing energy costs? OQ58038

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our Warm Homes programme for lower income households saves an average of £300 a year by improving energy efficiency. Eligible households have also benefited from the £200 winter fuel support payment. And additionally, a £150 cost-of-living payment is being made to properties in council tax bands A to D.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister. One of the issues I wanted to raise with you is the eligibility criteria for the winter fuel support scheme. Now, a constituent has, unfortunately, not been able to claim through the scheme, despite her being the carer of her dependent daughter, who has a disability, in receipt of means-tested benefits. Now, I understand, had the daughter been the bill payer, the daughter would have been eligible for the scheme, or should have my constituent or her partner, rather than her daughter, then they would also have been eligible for the scheme. So, it does seem, First Minister, that there is some degree of irregularity within this programme as it stands at the moment. So, from what I can understand, First Minister—I've taken this up with the Minister—the Welsh Government are exploring the potential for adapting the scheme for the next round later in the year. So, can I ask that this anomaly is considered, and the example that I've outlined is considered, so that my constituent, and others across Wales who find themselves in this position, could be accommodated in the next round of this scheme?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George for drawing my attention to that issue. He will know that the winter fuel support scheme was put together very rapidly in order to make sure that we got as much help as possible into the hands of households who very badly needed that help. We are now looking at ways in which to deliver our commitment to have a second round of that fund for the coming winter. We're looking at ways to extend its eligibility and to deal with any anomalies that may have arisen in the original scheme. So, I give him an assurance that we will certainly take into account the example that he's offered us this afternoon, because we want our help to get to as many households as possible within the parameters of the scheme and the funding available for it.

Buffy Williams MS: Households in Wales are facing the biggest fall in disposable income in close to 50 years, with the poorest households hit the hardest, spending over a quarter of their income on energy and food. Considering this is a Tory cost-of-living crisis, the solutions and comments we've heard from the Tory Westminster Government are a joke. We've been told to get better jobs, we've been told that we can't cook properly, and now we have a Prime Minister who's happy to see pensioners ride buses all day just to keep warm. In contrast, the Welsh Government are providing real solutions: the cost-of-living support scheme and the discretionary cost-of-living support scheme, the discretionary assistance fund, the pupil development grant access scheme, and the winter fuel support scheme. I know that charities and the third sector are also providing essential support, and it's so important that residents are aware of this. Will the First Minister explore the idea of creating a cost-of-living helpline, or writing to households in Wales, signposting residents to the third sector organisations and charities that are providing support to ease the cost-of-living pressures?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Buffy Williams for those points? And she's right, of course, that we need to make sure that households in Wales are as aware of the help as possible. And we're doing that in a number of ways, working closely with our local authority colleagues, making sure that, through third sector organisations, there's readily accessible information for people, and that, when somebody appears in one part of the system looking for help, we make sure that, at that point of entry, they're given good advice about any other forms of help that are available here in Wales. Now, we do that within the limits of the powers and the funding that we have available to us, and independent commentators have recognised that the degree of help available through the Welsh Government is greater than is available in any other part of the United Kingdom.
But, the point that Buffy Williams started with, Llywydd, is surely the most important one—the UK Government needs to do more to make sure that people are helped, and the single most obvious source of assistance is so readily to hand. Only last week, the chair of Tesco said that he thought there was an overwhelming case for a windfall tax. The chief executive of BP gave an assurance that, if there were a windfall tax, it would not affect that company's intention to invest £18 billion over the next eight years in energy measures in the UK. The Prime Minister tells us that he doesn't like a windfall tax and he doesn't think it's the right way forward on the same day that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was saying that no options were off the table and that he was open-minded about a windfall tax. Well, which is it? It really is time that the UK Government sorted out their own position on this matter, and did so in a way that takes money from firms that are making enormous excess profits because of the rise in energy costs and provides that money to exactly the sorts of households that Buffy Williams has highlighted this afternoon.

Health Services

James Evans MS: 2. Will the First Minister provide an update on the work the Welsh Government is doing to improve health services in Brecon and Radnorshire? OQ58044

Mark Drakeford AC: Health services in Brecon and Radnor are the responsibility of Powys Teaching Local Health Board. The board continues to invest in capital improvements that produce advances in service efficiency as it restores essential and key services alongside the continuing need to care for patients affected by COVID-19.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank the First Minister for that answer. Many people across my constituency have contacted me in recent days and weeks who are very concerned about the long and lengthy waiting times in all the district general hospitals that serve the residents of my consistency. Many of them would like to see a district general hospital built within my constituency, or at least more services being delivered closer to home so they don't face that agonising wait in A&E departments due to staff shortages. First Minister, do you agree with me and many of my constituents who have contacted me in the recent days that, rather than squandering £16 million on more politicians in this place to discuss problems, that money would be far better spent on employing 642 entry level nurses across Wales? With many wards in my constituency closing—[Interruption.]

I really do need to hear the Member, and I'm sure the First Minister does also, so if the question can be heard in some degree of silence.

James Evans MS: It's nice to hear so many Members agree with me, Llywydd.
With many wards in my constituency closing due to staff shortages, surely that £16 million would be better spent addressing our workforce problems and not putting more bums on seats in here?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd—[Interruption.]

Equally, I also want to hear the First Minister's response to that question, so if we can hear that in some silence, please.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, thank you. The Member made a number of important points before he went off the rails into cheap-shot politics, which is of course far too often the distinguishing characteristic of his party. When he was making sensible points, he referred to the pressure that services are under in Powys, and that is absolutely true. He referred to the need to repatriate services to Powys. I imagine that he has welcomed, therefore, the repatriation of wet age-related macular degeneration services, previously provided by the Wye valley trust, now available in Brecon hospital and in Llandrindod Wells hospital. He'll have welcomed the fact that endoscopy day cases, as which, again, people used to have to travel outside Powys to get those services, are now available at both of those sites.
He referred to the need to invest in our staff, and I don't disagree with him there. So, I'm sure that he will have welcomed the fact that, since 2016, under a Labour Government here in Wales, there has been a 30 per cent increase in the staff of the Powys local health board. And he refers to waiting times, and we want to see waiting times improve right across Wales, but Powys's performance for people waiting 26 weeks for treatment from the point of referral was 93.6 per cent against a 95 per cent target. How much we wish that everywhere in Wales was served in that way. There were 174 people waiting more than 36 weeks for treatment in Powys in February this year, the month for which figures were last available, and that was 702 lower than February a year ago. So, on the substantive points the Member makes, I'm sure he will recognise that the board is working very hard and successfully to reduce waiting times for patients, to bring more services into the county and to be directly provided by the LHB, and that we go on as a Government investing considerable sums of capital investment to allow buildings such as the Llandrindod Wells County War Memorial Hospital to be further adapted so that more services can be provided close to people's homes.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, three weeks ago, you said to me that there is no crisis in the food sector, after I raised with you the pressures on the agricultural supply chains. Yesterday, the governor of the Bank of England said families were facing an apocalyptic food price rise thanks to supply-chain problems caused by the conflict in Ukraine. Who is right, you or the governor of the Bank of England?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I think the leader of the opposition misunderstands what the Bank of England governor had to say. What he was referring to was the rise in the cost of food because of events in Ukraine and, as he said very clearly to the committee, because of Brexit. Now, there's a difference between the crisis caused by rising food costs and a lack of supply of food in supermarkets. We continue to be assured by his UK Government that there is no crisis in supply. That's different to the point that the Bank of England was making yesterday, which is the effect of supply-chain strains on food prices. That's the difficulty where the governor of the Bank of England was focusing his remarks.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I was making the point to you three weeks ago and six weeks ago that, because of the conflict in Ukraine, there is huge pressure on the inflation picture, that farms are having to buy seeds, fertilisers and other products that directly feed through into the food chain with the finished products that end up on the shelf. You did say to me, First Minister, that there is no crisis in the food sector. I put it to you that there is a crisis in the food sector, as the governor of the Bank of England referred to yesterday, but your Government dismissed the idea that I put to you about calling a food summit, to bring farmers, processors and retailers together so that we could discuss exactly what was required from Government and all sectors in the food chain to respond to the unique pressures that have emerged over the last three months. So, in the absence of us agreeing on the terms that the governor was referring to in his Treasury select committee meeting yesterday, can you outline to me what direct action the Welsh Government has undertaken to support the agricultural sector in facing the incredible price pressures on inputs that jeopardise the food supply, going forward, in the next six, 12 and 18 months?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, just to reiterate what I said, Llywydd, because I don't want to have what I said last time either misunderstood or misrepresented, the point that was being put to me before was about a shortage of food being supplied through the shops to Welsh citizens, and we continue to have assurances from the UK Government that that is not the case, and that there are no imminent shortages of essential supplies. That is a different point to the point that the Member makes, which I think is a fair one about the inflationary pressures both at the shop end of the supply chain, but also in the costs that are falling to farmers.
Now, we had a food summit only last week, which he may not have noticed; it was chaired by my colleague Jane Hutt. It brought together a whole range of interests to talk about inflation in the food supply chain, and how we in Wales can work together to support that. The wider picture can only be addressed on a UK-wide basis, and there are weekly meetings between the four nations where George Eustice, the lead Minister for the UK Government, takes part alongside Lesley Griffiths and Ministers from Scotland and representatives from Northern Ireland. And we are, therefore, working together to see how those pressures on seed prices, on fertiliser prices—. Those are all very fair points that the leader of the opposition makes and we'll tackle those on a four-nation basis, and Wales is always around the table when those discussions take place.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cash flow is a critical component of any business, First Minister, and as we go into the critical summer/autumn planting season, farmers need the confidence that they have the cash flow to buy the stock, breeding stock or seeds, to plan for the next growing season so that there's a harvest to be had next year. The UK Government in England have brought forward the window for paying the basic payment scheme to July so that that cash flow pressure can be alleviated. Will the Welsh Government take similar action here in Wales so that that BPS money can be paid into farmers' bank accounts, so that they can have the confidence to place the orders for the fertiliser, the seeds and the stock that they need, going into that critical autumn window? That's a direct action that the Welsh Government can undertake because you have the responsibility over it.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government's record of payment of BPS is, as the leader of the opposition will know, the best in the United Kingdom and has been for many years, and certainly a great deal better than it is across our border. We continue to have discussions every week with the farming unions here in Wales, and with other farming interests. My colleague Lesley Griffiths will, of course, be looking to see whether there are actions that we can take that respond to the pressures that the sector is under, and I will make sure that the specific suggestion that the leader of the opposition has made is part of those discussions.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, the Prime Minister signalled his intention to sack 91,000 workers, more than one in five of the total UK civil service, over the next three years. This would amount to over 6,000 job losses here in Wales. Has the UK Government shared the detail of their proposals with you as to where their axe is going to be wielded here in Wales, or was the first you heard about this, like the employees in question, via the Daily Mail? Has there been any communication from the UK Government in relation to the possible privatisation of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency in Swansea, Her Majesty's Passport Office or other agencies based in Wales? If these proposals are implemented, could the eventual total jobs lost in Wales be even higher than the 20 per cent figure suggested by the Prime Minister? And is it any wonder that the Westminster Government pulled its Bill on workers' rights from the Queen's Speech last week when it is behaving little better than P&O Ferries?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the last time I had a discussion with any UK Minister about civil service jobs, it was to hear that Minister trumpet the intentions of the UK Government to disperse civil service jobs around the country, and to bring more employment to Wales and other places outside London. What a different story this turns out to be in reality. Eighty per cent of civil service jobs in Wales are jobs that lie outside the Welsh Government. Adam Price is absolutely right, Llywydd, that if we were to take even a proportionate cut of the Prime Minister's 91,000, we would have 6,000 fewer jobs here in Wales. The fear is, as the leader of Plaid Cymru says, that we would take a disproportionately high number of job cuts here in Wales. Faced with difficulties of their own making, the UK Conservative Government reaches immediately, in a knee-jerk way, for the sorts of solutions that it has tried elsewhere and that have failed so badly, and threatens some of those agencies full of very hard-working people, who did so much during the pandemic to continue to provide a public service, and threatens them with privatisation.
You can be sure that we will be communicating directly to Ministers that, if they go ahead with their scheme—and I see many Tory MPs saying that they don't believe that this will ever happen—and if they decide that Wales is to be the test bed for it, then they will find a strong opponent here, in the Welsh Government, and certainly if they think that we will take a disproportionate share of job cuts, how much that will fly in the face of any claims this Government makes to levelling up big parts of the country outside the south-east of England.

Adam Price AC: Far from being the cause of the cost of living crisis, public sector workers are its victims, like every other worker. It's not cutting their jobs, but raising their real wages—especially for the lowest paid—that surely should be the urgent focus now. So, what can we in Wales do to help make this happen?
The Senedd and the Welsh Government are both committed to paying the real living wage to every staff member. Last year, the Dyfed-Powys Police force became Wales's first police force to become an accredited real living wage employer, yet not every public sector employer in Wales has done so yet. Why not, First Minister, invite them all to the next cost of living summit, and ask them what it would take to make Wales a real living wage nation, starting with the entire public sector, or at least that part of it that we in Wales, not Westminster, have control over?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, following the annual event in which the real living wage calculation is announced for the following financial year, I wrote to the leaders of all public sector bodies in Wales, urging them to come forward as real living wage employers. Now, the point that I made in my letter was that I am prepared to recognise that different bodies—different local authorities, for example—are on different parts of the spectrum as far as the journey to real living wage accreditation is concerned. Cardiff Council is an outstanding early example of success in that field, butI recognise that not everybody starts from the same place. What I'm not prepared to recognise is a reply that says that there is no plan to get to real living wage accreditation. So, that was the burden of my letter to not just local authority leaders, but leaders of public sector organisations of all sorts in Wales. This is a journey that we all have to be on, albeit that some will be better placed to get to the end of that journey than others.

Adam Price AC: We look forward to working with him positively to ensure that vision for Wales as soon as possible.
Today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia, Interphobia and Transphobia, and on this day it's a real pleasure to pay tribute to Jake Daniels, in becoming the UK's only openly gay currently active male professional footballer. I feel sure that his courage will give confidence to others to follow in his footsteps.
On a less positive note, the Wales International Convention Centre is, this month, hosting the televangelist Franklin Graham, who has called gay men and women the enemy who are here to devour our nation, and who has even praised Vladimir Putin for his homophobic policies. Now, Mr Graham may be entitled to his homophobic beliefs, but he's surely not entitled to be provided with a stage to air them at a convention centre that is 50 per cent owned by the Welsh Government. Does that not send out the wrong message from Wales—not of peace and goodwill, as we will do through the Urdd in Oslo tomorrow, but one that says that homophobia and hate are somehow still acceptable?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I begin by agreeing with what Adam Price has said about Jake Daniels? It's taken a 17-year-old to come forward in that way, and what a lesson that is for others who are older than that very courageous young man, and let's hope that his example will be heard by others.
I regret the fact that the event to which Adam Price referred is going ahead, but the decision is not one for the Welsh Government. We do not run that centre, and it's for those who are responsible for it to make those decisions. I'm sorry to see a person of those views being given a platform to express them here in Wales, and they absolutely do not reflect anything that the Welsh Government would be prepared to endorse or sanction. Instead, our plan, our LGBTQ+ plan for Wales, which we continue to work on and have had a very engaged set of discussions with members of that community and others on, aims to make us a genuinely LGBTQ+ friendly nation. That certainly extends to young people, and I thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for what he said about the Urdd and the message of peace and goodwill, which they will publish tomorrow in Oslo in their centenary year. It's a remarkable record, a record of expressing views and sentiments a million miles away from those that we regret being heard here in Wales, and giving us, alongside what we've seen of Jake Daniels today, genuine hope for the future.

Public Transport in Caerphilly

Hefin David AC: 3. Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for public transport in the Caerphilly constituency? OQ58067

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Hefin David for that, Llywydd. On Friday last week, the Welsh Government announced a further £50 million investment in active travel measures across Wales. All local authorities, including Caerphilly, will receive a minimum allocation of £500,000, and this funding will assist in developing alternatives to reliance on the car, including, of course, access to public transport services.

Hefin David AC: Just before I ask my question, I'd like to welcome Mr SeanDonovan and his mother Sarah into the public gallery. He will have taken a great deal of interest in the question that was asked by Adam Price and the response from the First Minister. I have also discussed this issue with them today.
And one of the key issues that I've raised previously with the First Minister is connection to the Grange hospital by public transport, by bus. I've spoken to Transport for Wales—I've had many meetings with them—and one of the things they are pioneering is a new east-to-west high-quality strategic bus corridor that would connect Llantrisant, Pontypridd, Abercynon, Nelson, Ystrad Mynach, Newbridge, Pontypool and Cwmbran to the Grange hospital, and I know my colleague from Blaenau Gwent is interested to see connections there too. It's going to be done in a three-stage process, and the first stage can be enacted quickly with the support of the Welsh Government, which is extending the route 21 service direct from Blackwood to the Grange, with an extension to Cwmbran. That can be done very, very soon. And stage 2, then, can follow fairly soon afterwards. What I'd like from the First Minister today is a timescale for that and some advice on how quickly that can be achieved—both stage 1 and stage 2, connecting our communities east and west, and particularly to the Grange hospital.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for that and acknowledge the consistent interest that he's taken in making sure that public transport links to the Grange hospital are as good as they can be, and I'm very pleased to say to him that we're in the final stages of finalising arrangements to introduce that new direct bus link to the hospital from Blackwood, Newbridge and Pontypool, and that that service will begin within a few weeks, in July. It will be a direct contract between the Welsh Government and the bus operator here in south Wales in order to get that service to happen. The service will operate on an hourly basis throughout the day, and we will carefully monitor its effectiveness over the first six months. That direct service will also connect with other bus and rail services at key hubs and interchanges. My colleague Lee Waters will make an announcement shortly to confirm the exact start date. It will be a significant advance in making sure that people who rely on public transport to get to and from the Grange hospital from the Member's constituency and from others along that route will now have that new service at their disposal.

Child Safeguarding

Samuel Kurtz MS: 4. What action has the Welsh Government taken to improve child safeguarding in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire? OQ58036

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. The Welsh Government works closely with all regional safeguarding boards and local authorities to strengthen and improve safeguarding practice across Wales. New all-Wales safeguarding procedures have been developed with those boards, to ensure services better identify and implement learning.

Samuel Kurtz MS: First Minister, 20 years have now passed since the tragic murder of eight-year-old Victoria Climbié at the hands of her great aunt and partner in London. The case highlighted the failings of different Government agencies that failed to address the persistent abuse that she was suffering at the hands of her family. Whilst this murder did not take place in Wales, the report undertaken by Lord Laming in 2001 set out a number of recommendations as to how best reduce the chances of such horrific incidents happening again. Only last year, we saw the appalling murder of five-year-old Logan Mwangi at the hands of his mother and stepfather in Bridgend. Recently, I spoke to constituents who expressed their concerns that social services were not being transparent or accountable in the way that they were dealing with safeguarding matters. Indeed, Lord Laming's review highlighted that there was too much, and I quote,
'organisational confusion and "buck passing"...to believe that the safety of a child can be achieved simply through issuing more guidance.'
First Minister, what measures are in place to ensure that these comments are listened to, and, a generation on, that cultures have changed? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for that important supplementary question. Victoria Climbié was just itself one more in a long line of significant child protection investigations. The foundational one in modern times was into the death of Maria Colwell back in 1974, and there's a very strong contrast between what the Colwell inquiry found and what the Climbié inquiry found. In the Colwell case, the inquiry found that that child's death was partly caused because every agency with whom she came into contact regarded itself as responsible for her welfare and didn't share information with other bodies; Climbié found almost exactly the opposite. In that case, any organisation onto whose desk the Victoria Climbié case arrived acted, Lord Laming said, as fast as it could to get that case off its desk and into the hands of another organisation. Our own Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 was very much designed to try to counteract that way of providing services for children, to make sure that children's services worked with others to help ensure the safety of children wherever they were in Wales.
The Member's original question asked me about Carmarthen West. When I visited Carmarthenshire social services some time ago, I was genuinely impressed by the way in which those services were organised to ensure that, for example, education and social services were part of a single directorate and worked together to make sure that children's interests were promoted and their safety promoted as well by those services working together. So, I think there are good examples of that happening across Wales. We need to make sure that that is consistently delivered. We have a series of reports that have helped us with that in more recent times, including the public law working group report. I was able to meet with the president of the family division only a couple of weeks ago, together with Judge Francis, the leading family court judge for Wales, to discuss a series of these matters. We will go on taking action at that Welsh Government level, but also working with our partners at the local authority level and at the regional partnership boards as well, all of whom have a part to play in making sure that the important points made by Mr Kurtz are addressed in the delivery of services in Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. Thank you to Sam for raising this issue. I'm very pleased to see the issues of social care for children being discussed here. I am very concerned, First Minister, about the situation in children's services in our local authorities. What support is the Government providing to local authorities, such as Pembrokeshire, to ensure that services are on a robust footing, and what is available to provide support for those people who work so hard on behalf of our children? Thank you very much.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much to Jane Dodds. We provide support to local authorities in a number of ways. We have provided more funding to them during the pandemic to help them to cope with that situation. I referred in my original answer to Sam Kurtz to the new guidance we have drawn up to help people in front-line services with the hard work that they're undertaking. We're working currently with our universities to see if there's more that we can do to draw in more people to the training courses that we have here in Wales to create a workforce for the future. So, I agree with what Jane Dodds said. It is a difficult area, and people on the front line are working so hard to work with other people to provide support and help to them. There are a number of possibilities where we can work together to improve the situation that's facing them currently.

Loneliness

Mike Hedges AC: 5. Will the First Minister outline Welsh Government action to combat loneliness in Wales? OQ58032

Mark Drakeford AC: Our strategy for tackling loneliness and social isolation, published in September last year, has been implemented through a £1.5 million fund delivering a wide range of local and innovative support. We will publish the first review of the strategy later this year, assessing progress and setting out next steps.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that response? Since the second world war, society has changed, which has led to an increase in loneliness and isolation for some. Families are smaller and more spread out, chapels and pubs have closed and the numbers attending have fallen significantly, work has become more fragmented, with work in the local factory becoming much rarer. Some choirs and other social groups have closed. One positive that we've seen in recent years has been the growth of Men's Sheds across Wales, including in Swansea East. Will the First Minister join me in welcoming the growth of Men's Sheds and outline Welsh Government's support for them? And just to add, women are allowed in Men's Sheds.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges very much. The picture, I think, is a mixed one, isn't it? Many things have changed over the period since the second world war. Some of those things make loneliness and isolation more difficult, some things have eroded those factors as well. I think I remember telling the story on the floor of the Senedd once of my mother telling me that, in 1946, her friend had gone from St Clears to work in Carmarthen, 9 miles away, and she had a board in Carmarthen, because, in 1946, you couldn't travel those 9 miles on a daily basis. Now, you can speak to your relations in Australia on a Zoom call without it being difficult for anybody. So, while some things have got more difficult, other forms of communication have eroded the difficulties of loneliness and isolation, and there are important lessons for us to learn.
The Men's Sheds initiative is one of those examples, originated, of course, in Australia. I know that Mike Hedges will be aware of the support that Swansea council, for example, has given to seven different Men's Sheds initiatives, using funds provided to the council by the Welsh Government, two of those in Clydach and Ynystawe in the Member's own constituency. They are only two examples of that initiative, which is to be found in all parts of Wales. Mike Hedges is right, of course, Llywydd; in Denbighshire, for example, funds from the Welsh Government have been used directly for Women's Sheds organisations, as well as Men's Sheds. Making sure that those possibilities are equally available to all our citizens is an important part of eroding loneliness and isolation across the whole of the population.

Hospital Services

Delyth Jewell AC: 6. What analysis has the Welsh Government made of the effectiveness of the current configuration of hospital services in South Wales East? OQ58066

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. The Grange University Hospital opened in 2020, on budget and ahead of schedule. As we emerge from the pandemic, the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board has reviewed its clinical model to ensure optimum delivery of care across all hospitals in the region.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch. First Minister, access to hospital services in the south-east of Wales is a significant problem. I've raised this in the Senedd before, particularly the fact that, when Caerphilly miners hospital closed, the Rhymney valley was left without an A&E. We were told that Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr would have one; the road signs originally said that it would, but the signs were changed and the hospital plans were downgraded. I'm not aware that any public explanation was given about why that has happened. Patients also have to travel long distances now, as we've heard already this afternoon, across the Valleys to get to routine appointments. I've heard from one woman living in Caerphilly who told me that she had to make a 56-mile round trip to get to a gynaecology appointment in Nevill Hall. This overcentralisation of services is impacting on workforce planning and morale. Junior doctors are limited in what learning opportunities they can access under a fragmented system, and medical training is suffering. I've called for a review of how hospital services in the area are configured because of this stress on hospitals, the disarray for staff and disruption to patient care. First Minister, do you agree that such a review is now overdue?

Mark Drakeford AC: I referred in my original answer to the fact that Aneurin Bevan University Health Board has been reviewing the way in which its structure of hospital services, and not just hospital services, is currently configured. I don't agree with the point the Member made about downgrading and fragmentation; I think the Clinical Futures programme was a model of how a planned system can be developed to provide services in a part of Wales. I'm sure that the Member is right that the model always needs to be kept under review; we've always got to be making sure that it's working as it is intended.
The model is a genuinely thoroughgoing one. It has the Grange hospital providing specialist services and critical care, it has three enhanced local general hospitals—the Royal Gwent, Nevill Hall and Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr—and it then has three further community hospitals—Ysbyty Aneurin Bevan, the Chepstow hospital and the county hospital. And it has urgent primary care centres—so, two new urgent primary care centres, one at the Royal Gwent and one at Nevill Hall, established with additional funding from the Welsh Government. Eighty-two thousand patients have now been seen at those new urgent primary care centres to make sure that people can receive those services as close to home as possible. And then you have, beyond that, the network of primary care services itself.
I'm sure that Delyth Jewell will welcome the ambition in the planned care programme, published by my colleague Eluned Morgan only a couple of weeks ago—[Inaudible.]—people would have had to travel to a hospital to receive can be now provided online with people in their own homes, and that 50 per cent of all follow-up appointments can clinically effectively be delivered in that way. We need to think about how the lessons we have learned over the last couple of years can be put to work to avoid some of those unnecessary and difficult journeys for people who are unwell in the first place and that previously would've been the routine way in which services would be provided. We can do better than that, and in been doing better than that, we can make sure that some of those access issues to which Delyth Jewell has referred can be significantly improved.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item, therefore, is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. The Business Committee has agreed tomorrow's Conservative and Plaid Cymru debates should be swapped. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Trefnydd. The phosphate regulations imposed by Natural Resources Wales in the river special areas of conservation are still having major issues right across Wales, and we are very near to crisis point in many of our industries, with our building profession almost coming to a halt in certain parts of Wales. So, can we have a statement from the Minister for Climate Change around the findings of the working group that was set up to find a solution to this problem? Because the sooner we get this problem solved, the sooner we can get our planning system and our buildings moving again. Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, you refer to a piece of work that is currently being undertaken, and I know the Minister is having a look at what has come from the group, and she certainly will be bringing Members up to date when she's considered all the recommendations.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for two statements on roads from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change? First of all, may we have an update on Llanbedr and what's the latest, please? Unfortunately, there was a terrible road traffic accident on Sunday morning, the eighth of this month, and a gentleman had serious injuries. I'm sure we all wish him a good recovery. As a result of this, the road was closed for most of the day, which meant that villagers had to make a 40-mile journey around the area to get toHarlech, which is only 3 miles away. This is the danger of having one lane only, and another example of why there is a need for a bypass. So, there is a need for a swift solution.
Secondly, may we have an update also from the Deputy Minister regarding plans to improve safety on rural roads in north Wales? We've seen a number of recent accidents—two serious accidents, for example, on two following weeks, on the A494 near Glan-yr-Afon near Bala. Local residents tell me that they are afraid of seeing the sun shining, because this inevitably means that accidents are going to happen on the road. Last year, there were six fatal accidents on Meirionnydd roads only, and 36 serious injuries as well. Half of the fatal accidents were motorbike riders. Since 2006, 24 fatal accidents and 162 serious accidents have occurred on Meirionnydd roads. So, can we have an update from the Minister regarding what steps he's taking to ensure road safety in north Wales? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I will certainly ask the Deputy Minister for Climate Change if there is anything he can update Members on in relation to road safety. I'm not sure if you said on rural roads or north Wales.
In relation to the Llanbedr bypass—and I certainly join you in sending best wishes to the gentleman who was injured—the report, as you're aware, by the chair of the roads review panel, concluded that the scheme did not align well with new Welsh Government transport and climate policy. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change has committed to providing funding for the development and implementation of an alternative package of measures to address the negative impact of traffic in Llanbedr and will update Members in due course.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We heard earlier from the leader of Plaid Cymru of the risk of cuts to public services that are controlled by the UK Government, including the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. One of my constituents, who's waiting to renew her short-term licence, which, because of her medical condition, she has to renew every three years, but unlike certain conditions like epilepsy and diabetes, she's unable to do an online application; she has to wait for the DVLA to send out her invitation to renew. And at the moment, (a) that arrived late, and (b) her GP is currently saying they're still not doing any DVLA referrals, without which she's unable to renew her driving licence, and this is actually trapping her in her own home,as opposed to holding down a full-time job, having a full social life, being able to visit people, do all her own shopping, et cetera. So, there must be many other people affected in this way by a DVLA that is simply not able to keep pace with the requirements that arerequired for people who need short-term licences. So, I wondered if we could have a statement from the Minister for Social Justice on how people with these disabilities are affected by this failure of the DVLA to process these applications in the short term, because her licence has now run out and she, as I said, is trapped in her own home.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and I think you raise a very important point. As you say, it's not an issue for Welsh Government around the issuing of licences, it's a reserved matter, and this is held by the UK Government. We're not responsible for that. However, you're making a point around the fact that your constituent's GP is unable to assist her in the way that really is necessary. I would urge you to inform her that I really do think she should speak to her practice manager in the GP surgery to see if anything can be done, because, to me, that seems a very simple and easy thing to be able to do to assist her.

Tom Giffard AS: Trefnydd, can I ask for an urgent statement from the Minister for local government after a number of constituents in the county of Bridgend have contacted me about their concerns about the appointments process within Bridgend County Borough Council? This comes after a Labour cabinet member in Bridgend County Borough Council was employed to work in a high-level salaried officer role in the very department for which he was responsible. Media sources have reported that the Labour cabinet member for communities in the council at the time he applied for the role was later then appointed as the new climate change response manager in that same communities directorate. It raises considerable questions for the council to answer about whether he was interviewed by officers in his own department, whether he held all the necessary qualifications for the role and the appropriateness of the process. I've written to the Labour leader of Bridgend County Borough Council with these questions in the hope that it will clear up the whole debacle, but at present I haven't had a reply, and they're also ignoring requests for an internal review into the situation too. The same council has also recently been forced to apologiseafter the Arbed scheme in Caerau, which went disastrously wrong, discovered the contract for the work carried out was awarded to a company with links to a sitting Labour cabinet member at that time. It's clear to me that there's a significant loophole in the legislation from Welsh Government that has allowed this situation in Bridgend County Borough Council to develop, where the public are raising serious concerns about the way the council handles the interests of its cabinet members. So, can I please ask for an urgent statement to clear up the matter and find out what action the Minister will take to clear it up?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I would advise the Member to await a response to his letter—I think he said to the leader of Bridgend council. And then once you've had the response, perhaps after you've considered it, if you feel you need to, write to the Minister for Finance and Local Government.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'm sure you know what I'm going to be asking you, but it's in relation to those greyhounds. Could I request a statement from yourself in your capacity as Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales on progress towards a ban on greyhound racing? I do want to thank you for your promise to attend our Hope Rescue walk tomorrow, and I do welcome any other Members of the Senedd. I would have brought my own greyhound rescue, Arthur, there, but I'm afraid he has problems with his legs that have come about, sadly, through greyhound racing, which is why we need to ban this cruel activity. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, and I'm very much looking forward to a walk round the Senedd tomorrow with some greyhounds, and like you, I would encourage all Members or as many Members as possible to join this. I think it's being hosted by Luke Fletcher and yourself. I'm aware, obviously, of the petition that had a significant number of names added to it, and I know it's being considered by the Petitions Committee at the current time. I also met, I think it was at your suggestion, with Hope Rescue to see what further we could do. As you know, it is absolutely my intention to consider greyhound racing in Wales as part of a future licensing scheme in the first interim, and that's set out in our animal welfare plan for Wales. As you know, it's a five-year plan, so I'm unable to give a specific date as to when we will be doing that, but I am absolutely committed to doing all we can to support greyhounds like your Arthur.

Sarah Murphy AS: Minister, I'm asking for a business statement today regarding the UK Government's Online Safety Bill, as it was raised in the Senedd, in the Chamber, last week. In February of this year, the UK Government announced two regressive and unworkable additions to the Online Safety Bill. Many human rights and digital rights camp groups have said that with each new announcement the Bill demonstrates itself to make the online world less safe for the people that it claims to protect, particularly LGBTQ+ people, survivors of abuse and ethnic minorities.
Firstly, by cracking down on anonymity
'The government claims that abuse is "thought" to be linked to anonymity but in practice, most online abuse is done by very identifiable people',
but for victims of abuse and prejudice, anonymity is necessary and the only way that they can access the online world while staying safe. Secondly, claiming to crack down on 'legal but harmful' content, the UK Government states that adult users will be able to opt out of this. However, errors in filters and content moderating algorithms have a tendency to discriminate against the people that these proposals are designed to protect. It is well known that LGBTQ+ content is routinely identified by machines as potentially sexual in nature and blocked.
So, my question is: could I therefore ask for a statement on how the Welsh Government is engaging with the UK Government on the Online Safety Bill and what Ministers are doing to ensure that internet safety is achieved through more rights to citizens as opposed to the dismantling of free speech that we are seeing in this Bill?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. Obviously, we are very aware of the UK Government's Online Safety Bill that has been introduced into Parliament. Digital tools and technologies are a part of everyday life for us and it's a very important area that you've raised. I know the Chief Whip and Deputy Minister for culture and sport has been liaising with the UK Government, and certainly her officials have very regular engagement regarding the draft Bill. They've also been in dialogue with Ofcom Wales about how they're going to use their expanded role as a regulator in relation to this. It's a very complex Bill. It passes through Parliament in line with common practice, so there's likely to be a number of amendments, I think it's fair to say, and we'll obviously continue as a Government to monitor the Bill as it does progress.
There is a really delicate balance between freedom of speech and ensuring people's safety online and the legislation will apply to internet services that host user-generated content such as images, videos and comments or which allow users to communicate with others online, and the legislation will not apply to e-mail services, text messaging, multimedia messaging services or one-to-one live voice call services. Online safety is a reserved matter, but this Bill will have an impact on Wales and it is really important we do keep a very close eye on it.

Gareth Davies AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the support for unpaid carers in Wales, which you might have seen as a headline on BBC Wales news today. A recent report from the Carers Trust Wales highlights the challenges faced by Wales's 370,000 unpaid carers, and it's worth remembering that figure—370,000. Carers Trust Wales recommends that health and social care workers do more to recognise and identify unpaid carers so that they can access bespoke support services.
They've also pointed out that almost half of carers of people living with dementia reported that their own health had suffered during the pandemic. There is concern that a lack of recognition of carers of people living with dementia, as well as the lack of regular formal review of their needs by health and social care workers can lead them to missing out on much-needed support before they reach crisis point. Therefore, Trefnydd, can we have a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the actions she is taking to identify these hidden carers and what further steps the Welsh Government will take to support Wales's army of unpaid carers who save the NHS around £8 billion each and every year?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, we are obviously very aware of the very important role carers play and I think it's really important that we value them and they feel valued. You'll be aware that in recognition of the financial impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, for instance, and the cost-of-living crisis on unpaid carers, Welsh Government is awarding a one-off payment of £500 to more than 57,000 unpaid carers in Wales who are in receipt of carers allowance. That payment targets individuals who care for at least 35 hours per week and have low incomes, and anyone receiving carers allowance up until 31 March this year can now register with their local authority and claim the payment.

I thank the Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: The National Music Service: Delivering the National Plan for Music Education

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on the National Music Service: delivering the national plan for music education. I call on the Minister to make his statement—Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Experiencing he joy of music, in all its forms, should be at the heart of every school and education setting. But we know that, for too long, learning to play an instrument has been for the few who can afford the tuition costs, and that is not acceptable. No child should ever miss out through a lack of means. Every child, regardless of their background and family income, should be able to benefit from music education.
I am pleased, therefore, to launch our new national plan for music education. The plan states that a national music service will be established, which is one of the main commitments in the programme for government. Some £13.5 million of funding will be provided to local authorities and their music services over the next three years to provide a sustainable future for music education in Wales. The plan sets out how all children and young people, from the ages of three to 16, will have the chance to learn to play an instrument. It ensures that our children and young people from all backgrounds make the most of what our rich culture, heritage and our communities, all over Wales and beyond, have to offer.
Our foundations of the National Music Service have already begun to be laid. Last year, a significant sum was spent—£6.82 million—to purchase musical instruments and adapted musical instruments to support our children and young people with additional learning needs. As part of this package of support, digital music licences were arranged for local authority music services and professional learning to help train our music practitioners and to ensure teaching and experiences are in line with the Curriculum for Wales.
Over recent months, we’ve worked with a wide range of stakeholders across music and education, schools and settings and the creative industry. We've listened to them on what we can do to help our children and young people to learn and experience the joy of music, and to provide them with experiences of that joy. Their enthusiasm on what we can do to help learners and their well-being, and the helpful and honest discussions about the challenges they face in recovering from the pandemic, have all helped shape what should be at the core of a national music service.
With music being one of the disciplines in the expressive arts part of the curriculum and 'what matters' statements that our schools and settings have to follow to develop the skills, experience and knowledge of our learners, the close links with schools and settings that will be delivering in this area will strengthen the service. Its close links with schools and settings will do this by delivering the expressive arts part of the curriculum, an essential part of the curriculum. In order that all children and young people can have lessons and experiences in music within schools and beyond, the National Music Service will nurture stronger links with organisations and work in partnership with our wider music community. Deputy Llywydd, working together, we will ensure that there is a diverse range of opportunities for music making and for enjoying music for life across Wales, no matter where the school or setting is based.

Jeremy Miles AC: The National Music Service will be made up of key partners and organisations working together as a hub, with the Welsh Local Government Association, as the lead body, responsible for co-ordinating the activities of the service and its work programmes. They will ensure that the work programmes are diverse and accessible to all children and young people, and allocate funding to local authorities to provide the necessary resources and staff to deliver the work.
The plan sets out our work programmes for the service, which will ensure that access to music education is fairer and more consistent right across Wales. The main focus of our work programmes will, from September, help our children and young people in schools and settings, with support for our learners from disadvantaged backgrounds, low-income households and those with additional learning needs to be able to access and progress with music tuition. Children and young people from under-represented groups and disadvantaged backgrounds will also be supported to join music ensembles as part of the plans.
For example, our First Experiences programme will give children in primary schools and settings a minimum of half a term of musical instrument taster sessions, delivered by trained and skilled music practitioners, to take part and enjoy making music. Our secondary schools and settings will receive funding for experiences that will support young people's health and well-being and their progression to GCSE music, providing them with opportunities to develop in playing an instrument or singing, and so nurturing their talents and ambitions. There'll also be a Making Music with Others initiative, which includes an ensemble recovery programme to support the recovery from the COVID pandemic in this area, and opportunities for our young people to gain industry experience through working alongside musicians and creative industries. A new national instrument and equipment library will also be created to support local authorities in establishing access to a resource bank of instruments and equipment to be shared across Wales.
Crucial to the service's success is the ability to assess how well these programmes are doing. The WLGA will develop an evaluation strategy, looking at the benefits to our children and young people and, more importantly, its success. They will have the flexibility to develop new work programmes if a programme is not going well, and adapt accordingly. The WLGA will also look at the challenges facing the music education workforce across Wales. To ensure our local authority hosted music tutors are treated equitably and that their contribution to music education is recognised properly, the WLGA will carry out a review of the terms and conditions, which will begin in autumn 2023 and is expected to complete by summer 2024.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I know how important it was to me, when I was in school, to have the opportunity to learn the baritone, in my case, and to be able to play in brass ensembles. I'm not alone in this. Music, I know, is something that many of us here today hold close to our hearts. I'd like to acknowledge the hard work of many Members of the Senedd who've campaigned in this area over recent years, none more so than Rhianon Passmore, whose passion in this area is clear for all to see. I'd also like to recognise the work of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications committee, whose inquiry and recommendations in the last Senedd have played an important role in today’s announcement.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the National Music Service and the national plan represent a bold step forward in supporting music education in Wales. Nerth gwlad, ei gwybodaeth—the strength of a nation is its knowledge. Our new National Music Service delivers on our manifesto, our programme for government commitment, and is vital to make that difference for our children and young people to nurture their musical skills in schools and our communities and for their well-being, so that we continue to produce new talent from our land of song for the next generation to come.

Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank the Minister for his statement today. We welcome this statement, as we feel Government financial input into music for young people is long overdue. I'd also like to extend my thanks to Rhianon Passmore for the work that she's done in the last Senedd. But we also—. It still remains that we have some practical concerns about your announcement today, Minister.
There has always been a postcode lottery in regard to access to music facilities and music learning opportunities across our council borders. This inequality of opportunity has to end, but is your proposal the right way to go about it, or is this another sticking plaster from this Government, as this really does need to be a long-term, sustainable plan? Music provision currently differs radically between all 22 Welsh local authorities, and the postcode lottery at the moment is very real.
For too long, this has been left to cash-strapped councils trying to rescue these services by themselves, and individuals—an example of this being the late Peter Clarke, former Monmouthshire County Council councillor, who was a huge advocate of Gwent Music, which helped secure that musical opportunity to a degree in Gwent. But it really has taken individuals on a crusade until now across our councils in Wales to save these musical opportunities for our children, which is clearly wrong.
It is clear that music education in Wales needs rejuvenation, and this National Music Service has the potential to be the catalyst for that, accessibility, of course, being a key factor in order to ensure success—to instruments and lessons. So, I hope that transport costs for those living in rural areas will be taken into account to ensure that equality of opportunity and access to those services and instruments—or will there be delivery costs for the instruments? I'm just wondering about those practical concerns that we have. The chance to use a free instrument could provide an invaluable experience to young people across Wales, and set them on that musical pathway, but there are still big questions as to how this would work in practice.
We welcome, obviously, the six months of lessons for children, but could you please clarify where they're coming from? Is that bodies like Gwent Music that the musicians are coming from? I just wanted some clarity on that for myself. If, after six months, a child or young person wants to carry on those lessons, how will they be financially supported to do so, so they don't just get that snippet of six months if they do want to take it further? Will they have vouchers? Will they have discounted services? Because, obviously, after that six months, those same financial concerns will remain for many of our families.
Also, prompted by speaking to my own child this morning about this, in terms of in school, when will they be delivered? Will they be delivered in lunch times, in break times, or as part of the new curriculum? Because I'm very aware of many children that would be put off by having them in their break times, which they value, obviously, greatly for their outdoor exercise and fresh air. So, that's the last thing that we want to happen. But if it is part of the curriculum, how will that fit into the school day, because this is three to 16? I'm just particularly concerned about, in secondary schools, how would that fit into the school day.
And finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, Minister, your Government has said that children from low-income families and those with additional learning needs will be given priority, but I'm just wondering how you're going to identify those children now, obviously, with free school meals going to be available for all.
So, I just wanted to ask if you could answer those practical concerns that we have today, and I look forward to your answers, because we all want this National Music Service to succeed. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Laura Anne Jones for the constructive questions that she has raised today and for the support that she's given to the proposals that I've announced in my statement. She asked whether the proposals were the right way of going about ensuring consistency of provision across Wales, and I can confirm to her that they are. The model that we've adopted to deliver the National Music Service is essentially a hub-based model, so the WLGA will be the national body on a Wales-wide basis, but working with the music services in all parts of Wales together, and other agencies as well, to deliver the service, and I think there are twin objectives, really. One is to ensure, as she says in her question, a greater consistency in all parts of Wales of the offer available and also, by working together, to increase the range of options available to pupils in schools in Wales. The First Minister and I were at St Joseph's school in Swansea yesterday, and we were able ourselves to experience a range of instruments, which the pupils were having a fantastic time playing. And our ambition is to see that happening in all parts of Wales.
The other point that she made in her question relates to the variability of the experience of the teaching workforce in different parts of Wales. A component of the plan, which is to undertake a review of terms and conditions of local authority hosted music tutors to ensure a greater consistency across Wales, is also an important dimension in that picture.
In relation to the point that she made about accessibility and instruments, she will remember the announcement that we made at the end of last year of almost £7 million-worth of investment to purchase instruments, and what we will be developing as part of this plan is a Wales-wide library of instruments so that we know what is where and what's available to support the ambitions of our young people, but also, importantly, to provide access to the ensemble experience, which is important outside the world of the school as well.
In terms of the progression question that she raised, there'll be, in the primary stage, at least half a term of free music taster sessions, so that young people can explore their tastes and preferences, if you like, in terms of instruments. But it's an important focus for this plan to make sure that music tuition remains accessible throughout a child's and young person's journey through school. So, for example, we will also be looking at agreeing a maximum charge for music tuition across the system. And also, if anyone is undertaking music tuition as part of their GCSEor, in fact, an A-level, that that will also be free. And for those learners who would not otherwise be able to afford tuition or an instrument because of the circumstances of their family, those will be prioritised for support as part of the plan.
The point that she makes about FSM eligibility as being a criterion that is relevant here is actually a common question across a number of areas of Government policy. Of course, FSM eligibility will still be a relevant criterion for secondary, and we are working on a set of metrics that will apply across the range of eligibility that we are responsible for.
Lastly, on the point in relation to the curriculum, the role of the music services in relation to the curriculum as part of this plan is essentially to support teachers to deliver the curriculum. Obviously, the design of the curriculum remains in the hands of the teachers themselves, but the tutors under the plan, under the service, will be able to support and signpost and advise the range of experiences that are available to young people as part of their service. So, they'll be working very much hand in hand with classroom teachers, and there'll be a range of professional learning resources that will be provided in order to support that work that the WLGA, the consortia and local authorities will be feeding into to make sure that it's consistent with the needs of the curriculum.

For Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you. I'd like to welcome this announcement today and note specifically how pleased I was to hear one word being repeated by the Minister, namely the 'joy' of music. The emphasis on the importance of music in terms of the health and well-being of all of us is something that all of us should welcome, and, particularly in the context of the cost-of-living crisis and the child poverty crisis, I welcome how important the emphasis is on equal access for every child and young person in Wales to music education, as well as the emphasis on equal access for children and young people with additional learning needs. The only thing that was a cause of regret in terms of your statement was hearing about your baritone voice and, therefore, that you didn't sing in your statement. But certainly, the fact that the emphasis is on joy in such a difficult context for many families is to be welcomed.
Because the truth is that there is a crisis in terms of music in schools. Estyn has found that music was one of the subjects most impacted by the pandemic, but we do have to acknowledge that the crisis existed before the pandemic. Since 2014, the number of pupils taking GCSE in music has fallen almost 20 per cent, and almost 40 per cent at A-level, creating a risk in terms of the future of the music sector in Wales. Further, research shows that 50 per cent of pupils in private schools receive music lessons frequently, as compared to 15 per cent in state schools, and this is reflected in terms of the numbers who go on to have a successful music career. This investment, therefore, is to be welcomed in terms of providing redress for the underfunding of services that were seen, until today, as something that was nice to have rather than something vital for the development of every child and young person.
I'd like to ask about a few practical points in terms of Estyn's role, and the role it will play in ensuring, by making school music provision a part of its inspections, that every school does take full advantage of this provision. Given that this is part of the new curriculum, I take it that this will included, but it would be good if we could have that confirmed. I would also like to have more information on evaluation, because it's important that we understand the impact of this, because if there hasn't been access to music education for so long, it is going to take time for pupils to want to take up this provision, and there will be a gap in terms of some students, too.
I also welcome the emphasis on the range of instruments, because not every instrument suits every person. I think that is important. Even where there is provision of music education in schools, sometimes only one specific instrument is provided, and if you don't love that instrument, then you're not going to love music in general. So, the range of instruments is very important, too.
May I also ask, with regard to the plan, whether there's an intention to ensure equal access to practice space? Because one of the challenges, of course, is to have that space at home. If you live in a flat, or somewhere with thin walls, and so on, you could face complaints, perhaps. We all know that when you start to learn an instrument, you might not produce the most pleasant noise in the world, but it is important that you are able to make those mistakes, so that you don't then feel put off when it comes to the need to practise. So, there is a requirement for practice space, and is that related to extending the school day, and the opportunity with regard to music there? Is that part of your intention?
Like you, Minister, I personally benefited from music education classes in school, as I learned the cello, clarinet and harp, and I borrowed instruments during that period, because instruments can be very, very expensive, too. I remember being able to have a harp on loan for £30 per year, and so I had the opportunity to learn. And I think that's to be welcomed in this plan, too.
Laura Anne Jones's points were very fair in terms of the long-term view. This is a three-year plan, and I very much welcome that question about the continuity of the investment, because this is an exciting and significant investment, in my view. I think one of the challenges is how we can sustain those opportunities in future and also the opportunities to take part in orchestras. There are often summer trips associated with that, which can be very costly. I think there will be many things that we will learn as this plan proceeds, which is to be welcomed, but this will also need to be evaluated.
I'd also like to pay tribute to Rhianon Passmore and the work of the culture committee. And, of course, I have to talk about Bethan Sayed. I see from Twitter today that she welcomes this very much, and if she were here today, she would be on her feet to welcome this plan. So, I look forward to seeing how this will all go, but it is important that we keep a close eye on this and ensure that there is that continuity so that equal access is maintained. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Heledd Fychan, for those questions. She's right to say that the situation has been something that we've wanted to address for years. I remember when I was in school taking advantage of free music lessons and, as the Member was able to, I was able to borrow a brass instrument, without our having to buy one as a family. Unfortunately, the landscape has changed significantly since then, of course. And the committees, including Bethan's committee, as the Member referred to, undertook work in the last Senedd to shape this, and it has been very valuable. And I would also like to talk about the work that Kirsty Williams, my predecessor, did in terms of investment in instruments and establishing Anthem, which has been a contribution to this important landscape.
In terms of the work that we will be doing with other bodies beyond the borders of the service, there will be a role for local authorities, Estyn and the consortia to help shape how the work of the service touches with the needs of the curriculum and so forth. In creating resources, we'll be working with Estyn on that in order to create professional training resources, for example, so that tutors have access to the best means of ensuring that this happens. And the element of evaluation, I think, is an important one in this sense, because this is a significant investment, and the structure we have is one that's growing from the grass roots up, rather than the other way around. That's exciting, and it enables experimentation and local approaches, and we'll learn from those in terms of what works best and what doesn't work. That is inevitable, I would say. So, this process of evaluation, as we go on, is important so that we can make changes in order to respond to the best practice that will be demonstrated. And I think the Member is right to say that we have to do that in the context of looking at what's happened during the last two years, as that has had an impact.
The point about practice space is important. I think this is part of the wider agenda that we have as a Government in terms of schools that have a community focus and are therefore open beyond the restricted hours of the school day in order to allow their resources to be used in the way that she mentioned in her question.
Just as a final point, this commitment is a three-year commitment. We've only got a three-year funding commitment currently for everything, so that's the reason for that. Of course, we'd want to see the continuation of this sort of service beyond that. I hope, and I expect, that this will be a period where we'll be on a new path. I'm sure we'll see success in this area over the next three years and that we'll want to build on that.

Carolyn Thomas AS: This is music to my ears, this announcement. [Laughter.] I'd also like to pay tribute to Rhianon Passmore, who has been instrumental in championing this. I learned music through a recorder at school, and then stuck notes on my grandmother's piano so that I could learn on her piano as well. And people learned through the colliery brass bands, didn't they, at one time. My son learned through the Flintshire music service 10 years ago. Then, though, there were 2,500 young people taking part through one council's music service, because it was free, and it was a marvellous community. But it was austerity and cuts to public service funding that impacted over the years, as it could no longer be subsidised by the council, and charges started increasing, increasing, bit by bit each year. There was free transport then as well, which was amazing—it was a real community—but it was the cuts then that impacted so much that now there are only a few hundred that take part.

You need to ask your question now, please.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Okay. So, I encouraged my son to learn when it was free. We would not have had access otherwise to that music service, and he would never have had the chance to learn because we couldn't have afforded it. So, will it really be free for people to try? And also, he learnt the trombone because it was the only instrument left for him to try, but he stuck with it and managed to do it to grade 8. But, we need to make sure there's a variety of instruments for people to learn—and it was great that that was the only instrument left—so that young people don't just want to learn drums and guitar, because those seem to be the really popular ones, because we need to have a variety, don't we, for ensembles for brass bands, for all these great things?
And there was just one more thing. It was mentioned previously—

No, you're over your time. There are no more things.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Okay, fine. I will write to the Minister with the other one. [Laughter.]

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I commend Members generally for having been restrained in their use of musical puns in their contributions today? But, I'll just say, Carolyn Thomas, that your contribution hit the right note. I hope Members won't feel this is too orchestrated. [Laughter.] But, just to say, I think the point that she makes about the variety of experience is absolutely at the heart of this. I started off playing cornet and then became a euphonium and baritone player, partly because of the availability of instruments. So, I think we want to do everything we can to make sure that there's a range of instruments available and, certainly, if the experience that the First Minister and I had yesterday in the school in Swansea is anything to go by, there was definitely a menu of options for young people to choose from. And actually, the investment that we made at the end of last year has been invested with that very much in mind.
In relation to the costs, yes, for those who need the most support, tuition will be free, and for those for whom it's an important part of their GCSE or A-level examinations, it'll be free. But, for everybody, the ambition in the plan is to agree a maximum charge for the tuition that is delivered during school time. So, that'll be an important part of the work that the WLGA, together with the music services, will be delivering as part of this.

Sam Rowlands MS: Can I join Members in welcoming today's statement on the launch of the Welsh Government's National Music Service? I declare that my sister-in-law is a peripatetic music teacher in north Wales. But, Minister, you referred a couple of times to your visits yesterday, and I did enjoy the video of yourself and the First Minister, but it did highlight to me the importance of a national plan for music tuition being developed, because it was certainly inspiring. But, last year, I had the pleasure of visiting a Wrexham and Denbighshire music co-operative to watch one of their live streamed performances to local schools, showing children a range of musical instruments and encouraging them to take up music themselves. This is just one example of many fantastic organisations out there that provide this service for our young people. So, in light of this, Minister, what assessment have you made of the role of organisations such as Wrexham and Denbighshire music co-operative in helping to deliver and making a success of the National Music Service? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that. When I was on the committee that looked into this in the last Senedd, we took evidence from a range of music services. So, the ambition of the plan isn't to stipulate the form of the service delivery; that will remain a function for the local authority, but all music services will be able to work together with the WLGA to deliver the plan overall. But, one of the challenges that we faced for some time in Wales is actually the variability of the experience of music teachers in different parts of Wales, whatever the form that the service itself takes. And I think a really important advantage of the plan that we have here is, over the course of the next, 2023-24, academic year, an important and quite complex, actually, piece of work to look at the different terms and conditions that apply to music tuition right across Wales, and to seek to bring greater consistency and fairness to that, because I think, ultimately, to deliver a long-term, sustainable step change, which is exactly what all music services want to see as part of this plan that I'm confident will be delivered, it will be important to make sure that the workforce have that consistency across Wales, insofar as we can do that.

Jack Sargeant AC: I find myself this week amazed to be following contributions from Laura Anne Jones and not shouting 'object', which is a surprise to me, but it's clear, Minister, that this statement today has cross-party support, and I commend this statement to this Senedd.
But as Members have said from across the Chamber, including yourself, I couldn't contribute to today's statement without paying tribute to my good friend Rhianon Passmore, because it is due to her drive and determination that we are here today—her drive and determination to get it into the Welsh Labour manifesto, which we stood on and won. I do hope that this music strategy inspires the next generation of musicians, and I'm sure that it will, because those are the real winners. The children of Wales are the real winners, because they will be given that gift of music.
Minister, I have already had excited constituents asking me: how can they get involved, how can they sign up, how can they take part in this programme? I would be grateful for a response to that question, because this is a really important announcement today. I very much welcome this. I welcome it from a Welsh Labour Government bringing forward a great strategy.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that, and I think that his point about inspiring the next generation is really at the heart of this. Whether your experience of music is just to have a go at an instrument at primary school, or whether it becomes a lifelong passion, or whether it becomes your career, I think that part of the offer here is to make sure that we connect young people who have a particular passion, who might want to make a livelihood out of music, helping them along that journey, connecting them with the support that they need, and the career options that are there for them. But even if you don't want to do that, even if you just want to have music as a passion and a pastime, the service will support you in doing that.
So, the plan is for this to be rolled out from September of this year. So, one of the, I would imagine, first tasks that the lead body, the WLGA, will be setting itself is to make sure that the information is cascaded out into schools, through the music services already embedded in those schools, so that our young people know what the opportunity is and how they can access it and make the most of this exciting opportunity.

And finally, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, thanks so much for this very welcome statement today—a statement that you would not be making had it not been for the contribution that Rhianon Passmore has made in regard to this particular issue over many years. Just a small number of questions from me.
First of all, how do you envisage using or utilising the Welsh diaspora, and in particular some of the most successful modern-day musicians that we have representing Wales around the globe, including people like Jonny Buckland, who went to Mold Alun High School, and is one of the world's most successful modern-day musicians as a member of Coldplay, and who regularly reflects on the fact that it was his music teacher, Mrs Parr, who gave so much in his development? Secondly, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to ask the Minister whether any thought or consideration is being given to similar initiatives for drama and dance. Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Ken Skates for those two really important questions. On the first of the two questions, actually, we have already had contact from a number of high-profile Welsh musicians—some in Wales, but some beyond our borders—who have been terribly excited by this announcement and have been getting in touch to say, 'How can we help?' So, referring back to the question that Jack Sargeant asked earlier, we will want to look over the coming weeks at how we can harness the commitment and enthusiasm of those who have made a real success of music in Wales, to help us promote the availability of the service from September onwards. So, I think that there is a really important task for us to undertake there.
And I hope that the kind of approach that we are taking in relation to music education here can have benefits in other parts of the creative and expressive arts. It's an integral part of learning in the new curriculum, but beyond that, we absolutely know the value that artistic expression and creative expression of all forms can have in terms of well-being and, in particular, I think, in the course of the experience that young people have had over the last two years. The more that we can do in this space, the more that we should, and I'm sure that young people right across Wales will benefit from that.

I thank the Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: The Housing-with-Care Fund

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on the housing-with-care fund. I call on the Minister to make the statement. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Sorry, there was a small thing about sharing pens there, so apologies.
Decent, affordable housing is fundamental to the health and well-being of everyone in Wales. Healthy homes provide individuals and families with a stable and secure base that meets the household's needs. They give us a place where we can feel safe and comfortable, and where we are connected to the community, to work and to services.
Investing in healthy homes is an investment that works hard for us. A quarter of our carbon emissions come from the housing sector. Building new homes to low-carbon and zero-carbon standards makes a significant contribution to tackling climate change. Building new homes creates jobs and apprenticeships, and stimulates economic growth.
And as a preventative service, healthy homes reduce pressures on health and social care services by helping people to maintain their independence. Healthy homes reduce chronic diseases, improve mental health, reduce falls and accidents, and provide a safe environment for early hospital discharge.
Since 2018, we have invested £145 million in the integrated care fund capital programme, providing specialist housing for older people, people with dementia, people with a learning disability, children with complex needs, and unpaid carers. We also invested in intermediate care accommodation in the community, and essential social care infrastructure.
This morning, I visited Tŷ Glas y Dorlan in Cwmbran. With a £1.7 million Welsh Government grant from the ICF, Torfaen County Borough Council, Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and Bron Afon housing association have worked in partnership to deliver a remarkable development that can have a profound impact on health and well-being in Torfaen. The development includes six extra-care flats for older people on the third floor, and 13 short-term reablement and rehabilitation flats with their own front doors. These reablement flats offer a home-like setting for people stepping down from hospital, and an environment where people who may be considering residential care can be supported to learn new skills so that they can continue to live independently in their own home. Tŷ Glas y Dorlan is a hub for care and therapeutic services for the whole community. Developments like Tŷ Glas y Dorlan are the reason why we are significantly increasing our investment in specialist housing and accommodation in this Senedd term, in support of our programme for government commitment to provide innovative housing to meet care needs.
Today, I am announcing the housing-with-care fund, a four-year fund that builds on the ICF capital programme. In this year's budget we allocated £182 million over the next three years to regional partnership boards to provide housing with care. We aim to increase the total stock of extra-care housing in Wales by up to a third over the next four years, as a direct response to the ageing population. It enables us to accelerate our long-standing policy of helping people with a learning disability, autism spectrum disorder, and other neurological conditions, to live independently, where possible, in their own home.
We will also invest in intermediate care accommodation, such as that provided at Tŷ Glas y Dorlan, as well as accommodation for people who are not yet ready for full independence, and who can sometimes find it difficult to maintain a home, such as a tenancy in the private or social rented sectors. This makes them vulnerable to harm and to experiencing homelessness. This includes care leavers, young adults with learning disabilities, and people with emotional health or mental well-being needs. Investment in transitional accommodation for these groups can contribute to preventing homelessness and all the harm that that can cause.
We will also invest to support our programme for government commitment to fund regional residential services for children with complex needs, ensuring their needs are met as close to home as possible and in Wales wherever practicable. Too often, vulnerable young people with higher needs and challenging behaviours are placed in out-of-county or out-of-country, even, placements. These are staggeringly expensive, with over £200,000 a year per child not being uncommon, and detrimental to their well-being, cutting them off from family and friends, and severing links with local health and care services. Regional partnership boards must address the need for local accommodation as a matter of urgency.
The housing-with-care fund is part of a package of cross-government funding for regional partnership boards, which includes the health and social care regional integration fund and the integration and rebalancing capital fund. In total, this package is worth £255 million in 2022-23.
With this funding comes key leadership challenges for regional partnership boards. The first is to maximise the value of these combined funding streams, using revenue and capital to drive fundamental change. And the second is to build stronger partnerships with local authority housing teams and housing associations, so that social housing providers are an integral part of how health and care services are delivered. And the third is to make smart investment decisions that support our cross-cutting priorities and set us on the road to a healthier, more resilient and low-carbon Wales. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. In 2017, local authorities warned at that time that they expected an increase in demand for housing with care over the next five years. In fact, your own Welsh Labour Government published a report on the evaluation of extra-care housing in Wales which noted, and I quote:
'The vast majority of local authorities'
—and that was 18 out of 22—
'expect an increase in demand for general needs housing for older people and the majority (16) expect demand for extra care housing to increase over the next five years.'
A similar profile of responses was forthcoming from housing associations, and the majority of local authorities, housing associations and extra-care scheme managers agreed that demand for extra care was outstripping supply. So, I suppose one has to ask, as we are the official opposition: why has the Welsh Government waited five years since the publication of the report to make the statement on this funding today?
I acknowledge that social housing grant funding previously made available by the Welsh Government has been important in driving some growth. In fact, as of 2017, three quarters of all schemes have been developed since the Welsh Government published guidelines and made ring-fenced funding available to support the development of extra-care schemes in 2006. So, do you think that it was a mistake to end housing with care's dedicated funding, and has this negatively impacted the number of such homes we have in Wales today? At present, according to an independent report prepared for the Welsh Government, there will be a shortfall of approximately 5,000 units in Wales by 2035.
Housing-with-care schemes are typically located in cities and towns, rather than rural areas, and this is despite 25.4 per cent of residents in rural counties in 2019 being the age of 65 or over, which is an increase from 16.6 per cent in the year 2000. The national survey for Wales has reported that three quarters of people aged over 65 report feeling lonely sometimes. A report published by the Associated Retirement Community Operators states that housing-with-care residents experienced lower levels of loneliness, with only 1 per cent of residents feeling isolated often. So, isn't that a model we should all be looking to work towards?
So, bearing in mind that loneliness and isolation can be at its worst in rural communities and that rural counties are seeing more ageing populations, what steps can you take, Minister, to see funding prioritised to support some development of schemes in our more rural areas? Such schemes in rural Wales could free up homes for the younger generation. It would also give a boost to the Welsh NHS.
A report has found that residents living in housing-with-care schemes see a reduction in frailty and falls within two years of living at their home, with improved exercise and fitness, and additionally, for those living in integrated retirement communities, costs for GP, nurse and hospital visits reduced by some 38 per cent. In Llanrwst, ClwydAlyn have Hafan Gwydir, an extra-care scheme with fantastic facilities, and that one actually has an adjoining health centre and an on-site GP surgery. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that planning authorities should now be encouraged to allocate land in our local development plans for housing-with-care developments, on fields next to or near GP practices, if they're unable to actually afford to be able to put that new service in place where it's more all singing, all dancing, and people can access medical needs as well?
And you'll be aware that tenants do have varying needs. For example, some require care support. In light of the ongoing care crisis with lack of staff, especially amongst the domiciliary home care providers, it is easier for them to have clients in one location instead of spreading out miles apart from each other. So, would you acknowledge that by providing funding to develop housing-with-care schemes, we could also alleviate some of the significant pressures on our overstaffed—no, not 'overstaffed' at all—our overstretched domiciliary care workers? And let's work together; it's having a more integrated housing-with-care system here in Wales. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and Minister. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. I think I discerned somewhere in there an enthusiasm for housing with care, which I certainly am really pleased to see. So, just to set your mind at rest: we obviously haven't waited five years. In response to the report that you mentioned, the ICF capital programme was started in 2018-19, and it was established to provide housing and accommodation to support models of care that enable vulnerable people to live independently or regain independence via intermediate care settings.
As I said in my statement, the £182 million builds on the initial ICF capital programme. That programme had £145 million-worth of capital, which was allocated out to 198 projects right across Wales to the total value of £363 million when you factored in other funding streams. They included 50 housing projects, including extra-care and supported living, 66 intermediate care projects like children's residential and step-up, step-down accommodation, 82 services and infrastructure projects like community hubs, feasibility studies and equipment. The beneficiaries did indeed, as she asked me to ensure, include older people, people with dementia, adults with learning disabilities or autism, children with complex needs and unpaid carers. Janet's also aware, because she mentioned it with ClwydAlyn, that I've actually opened one of these in her own constituency, so we definitely do have them in rural areas as well, and that's exactly the point.
A couple of other things you said, though, Janet, I must say I have to take a little bit of exception to. So, absolutely, this is a programme for all of Wales. We have an ageing population across large parts of Wales, and part of this is in response to that. In the project I went to see this morning, which made my heart sing, to be honest, everybody there was amazing. The people living there were really happy to be there—the people going through the reablement services. One young woman in particular really did bring tears to my eyes in her enthusiasm for the difference that it made to her life. She had had problems that had really meant her life was pretty much over, as she saw it, and staff at the reablement centre had got her from that point to the point where, at the end of this month, she's actually moving back into a normal house in the community with the support that she needed to be able to take her life forward, having had it emphasised to her what she can do rather than have it emphasised to her what she can't do, which is a really important part of it.
The project also allows a hub method of getting services out into people's homes in the community. I don't think that we need to corral people into a central place where they don't necessarily want to be, although for some people they will want to do that. What we want to do is enable a model that helps people have the living that they want. So, if they want to stay in their own home, or they want to go into residential, or they want to do something in the intermediate care space, we need to be able to enable that. And so, the occupational therapists I met this morning, who are an incredible bunch of people, and very enthusiastic for all of the gadgets and gizmos that they had there to help people live independently, are able bring people into the suite there, to show them how to use things and what's available, and then facilitate, through, of course, our increased disabled facilities grant, which, as you know, is no longer means tested for low and medium-sized projects, putting that equipment back out into people's houses so they can stay in their own home and not come in centrally.
So, I think, Janet, we were sort of agreeing with each other, but I think there's a bit more to this model than meets the eye, which I think you would agree with once you've had a chance to look at it in more detail, and perhaps visit Tŷ Glas y Dorlan, which was fantastic.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement. According to the Welsh Government guidance on the fund, the main purpose of the housing-with-care fund is to increase the stock of housing to meet the needs of people with care and support needs, to support independent living in the community for people with care and support needs, and to provide intermediate care settings in the community, so that people who need care, support and rehabilitation can return to living independently or maintain their existing independence. This is to be welcomed as it plays an important part in ensuring that the people of Wales have a right to housing, and housing appropriate and suitable to their needs. This is a crucial principle, as we move forward, to answer the housing crisis.
As your guidance notes, we are facing a number of growing challenges with regard to healthcare, social care and housing in Wales. We have an ageing population. The 2018-based population projections estimate that the total population age 65 and over will increase by over a quarter over the next 20 years, with the number of those age 75 and over rising by almost 50 per cent to a little under 0.5 million people by 2041. Alongside age-related poor health and disability, other growing challenges include greater numbers of people with existing conditions living longer into older age, with cumulative health impacts, such as people with a learning disability or dementia. For these populations to live independently with dignity and care, the housing-with-care fund must be effective in responding to the challenges ahead.
We also need to ensure that the accommodation and care needs of particularly vulnerable groups, who are not able to live fully independently, are met as close to home as possible. As it stands, many children and young people are placed each year in out-of-county or out-of country placements, as you mentioned yourself, Minister, which is costly, reduces local control over the person's health and care management, impacts on family contact and relationships and the well-being and outcomes of the individual. So, as a more overarching question, I'd like to ask the Minister what lessons she has learned from the previous integrated care fund with regard to how it helped respond to the aforementioned challenges and what bearing these lessons have had on the new fund. Can the Minister also explain how much input health providers, social care providers and occupational therapy are having in developing housing plans, from spatial plans, such as our LDPs, to individual sites, to ensure that people's needs are answered?
Another stated key driver of this fund is the need for intermediate health and care services in the community and adequate facilities to provide step-up or step-down reablement and rehabilitation at a local level through the provision of appropriate bedded facilities, as well as community facilities that reflect home environments, supported by appropriate care and rehabilitation services. With regard to the need for these facilities, how successful was the last fund in terms of delivering these requirements? And with regard to this four-year capital programme, with a confirmed £181.5 million over the first three years, what targets do you have for the delivery and the construction of facilities by 2025-26? In terms of projects funded by the ICF, an evaluation found that key barriers to funded projects included the COVID-19 pandemic, the impact of annual funding arrangements and the implications that this has had upon staff recruitment and retention. On the point regarding staff recruitment and retention, I'm keen to hear from the Minister how the new fund will respond to this challenge. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Mabon. You make a series of really good points there. We absolutely have learnt lessons from the ICF; we always look to evaluate our programmes as they run through and hope to adapt them as we go. Amongst the lessons learned, we've been looking at how the structure of the funds can be improved. In particular, we want regional partnership boards to focus on strategic functions, ensuring that they have the expertise to identify the capital investment opportunities appropriate to their population, and we are supporting them directly with the resources to do just that. At the same time, we want to see much greater involvement of social housing providers, local authorities and housing associations in delivery, hence the change in the emphasis of the fund. It was the integrated capital fund, this time it's housing with care, so putting housing front and centre to make sure that those providers are much more integrated into the planning than they were for the first iteration of the fund. They were there, but not quite as integrated as we would like them to have been.
We're also looking to encourage a mix of social housing grant and HCF, or the housing-with-care fund, to increase the number of schemes that can be funded, and that will ensure that regional partnership boards have pipelines of schemes that are more resilient to slippage, with things like the pandemic. We're currently experiencing, as everyone in this Chamber knows, real issues with supply chains and increased costs of supplies. So, we're making sure that the pipeline is there. We have a series of different funds that can be brought to bear. Also, I want—and everybody in this Chamber will have heard me say this—these sustainable communities that we talk about. We don't want retirement villages, we want people spread into their communities so that we have a mix of tenures. So, allowing our social housing grant to be used alongside it means that we can get social homes into the mix as well. I'm really keen to do that.
We're also using the same assessment criteria as our main social housing programme while making allowances for the additional requirements of specialised housing. The evaluation model will look the same, so we'll be able to compare them in a way that we weren't able to do with the first fund, and that's one of the lessons learnt, as well. There is a real call for strong leadership from the regional partnership boards to use the resources at their disposal to forge stronger partnership relationships with housing partners and to ensure the investment of support across Government portfolios for a healthy and more resilient low-carbon Wales. So, to that end, we're also insisting on low-carbon passive house-type standards for these buildings, so they have low energy requirements and they don't contribute more carbon than they need to to the climate problem, both in the construction phase and in the living phase. So, we're ticking a lot of different priorities here with the same thing.
And then, just lastly, I actually opened a children's home, as it happened, in Torfaen, under the old programme, and it was one of the most—well, I don't know how to describe it, really—emotional things I've ever done as a Minister, because it brought two young people back from out of country, back into their community. Their parents were there to greet them, they had supported housing in the middle of their community, and the joy on their faces was just worth every single penny. But, even better, it was actually saving money as well, so what's not to like about this model? So, I really hope to see this rolled out across Wales ASAP.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome the Minister's statement on housing with care. Members probably remember my continual and regular call that decent, affordable housing is fundamental to the health and well-being of everyone in Wales. It's been really nice to have that echoed by the Minister today.
The AttleeGovernment in 1945 realised the relationship between health and housing. That seems to have got lost since then, and I hope this is us moving in that direction to actually work along those two and the link between the two. I welcome the development of reablement and extra-care flats, especially reablement flats. Too often, people get discharged from hospital into a home and then that's it, the end, and they stay there until they die, which is probably going to be premature, because they lose the will to live. So, reablement is really important. We don't do enough about reablement, and I wish the health Minister was here, because I could be saying that to her as well—that we don't do enough about reablement.
I have two questions: does the Minister agree that we need to build council housing at the scale of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s to deal with housing need? And how many units of housing will the £182 million achieve?

Julie James AC: Thanks, Mike. Yes, I do absolutely agree with that; you've always been a champion for this kind of housing, I absolutely acknowledge that, and it's been really good to work alongside you on these agendas. We are absolutely going to scale and pace. One of the big, big frustrations for me, because of the global supply chain problem and the climate crisis, is in trying to get the availability of the supply chain, so that we can actually build those houses. It has been a real frustration. So, we're working really hard across Wales with all kinds of partners in both the public and private sector to try and get those supply chains running as fast as possible. And with that in mind, we're also allowing the integration and rebalancing capital fund programme to come alongside this one, to put different funding streams in place, so that we can get that pipeline I just talked about when I was responding to Mabon, so that we have complementary funds, and they're all supported by the regional integrated funding to provide new models of care to go alongside this. So, I could not agree with you more; the idea that somebody coming out of hospital just gets put into residential care and has their basic, physical needs looked after, but that's it—that is not a model that we want to have. And going to Tŷ Glas y Dorlan this morning, I spoke to a number of people whose lives have been absolutely transformed by the concentration on what they could do rather than the concentration on what they couldn't do, and the hope and optimism that had given them was just a joy. So, we need to get more of that out there into our communities, and we need to build—you're absolutely right—those houses at scale and pace.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Minister, very often with these announcements, you can't put them into reality until you actually visit a facility, I think, and I visited Marleyfield House in Buckley last year. The capacity has doubled and been designed with reablement in mind, so patients can leave hospital, build up strength before moving on to their own home. It's fantastic. Each room has balconies overlooking Hope mountain, there are dementia-friendly walks, and the mature trees have also been incorporated into the landscape. It's got 54 solar panels, a part-natural green roof, and surface water drains into a pond, creating an area of biodiversity as well, which is absolutely fantastic to see. Minister, would you visit this facility with me so you can actually see the difference Welsh Government funding, working with the council funding—it's a council care home, by the way, as well—and Betsi Cadwaladr, who have actually funded the revenue funding of running it in the future, is having, so you can see that package working collaboratively and what it can achieve, and how it actually relieves pressure on the NHS, which we were debating last week? Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, I'd be delighted, Carolyn, to come and visit. I'm planning a trip up to north Wales very soon, so perhaps we can incorporate it then. That would be lovely. That's a project that absolutely evidences what we've just been talking about. That is bringing a number of revenue streams together, all available from the Welsh Government in different guises, to make these projects work. Preventative care budgets, housing budgets, capital fund budgets all coming together to make a really good model of care, both for the residents in intermediate care and for the community, on a hub model, really works well. And also, what I really love about the projects you're talking about there are the use of brownfield sites, the preservation of the good parts of those sites, and the ability to bring those sites back into use. So, we don't have to be expanding out into greenfield, we can be using sites that are available for adaptation or replacement, and we can get that care right into the heart of the communities where it's most needed.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much. I very much welcome your mention of regional residential services for children with complex needs, because this is a really good example of invest-to-save, because, at the moment, as you say, we spend over £200,000 per place, and if they're far away from home, then who is actually monitoring the quality of that provision? So, I wondered if you could give us a bit more detail on how many places we are outsourcing away from Wales, and therefore are very difficult for families or the corporate parent to monitor, and what progress you expect to see regional boards make on this one.
Secondly, I'd just like to pick up on what was mentioned by Mabon ap Gwynfor, which is around dementia. It's a broad-spectrum description of a condition, which can range from just brief memory loss to complete inability to manage your own life. But the telemedical possibilities enable people to live as safely as possible in their own homes, without having people absolutely on top of them the whole time. So, I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about whether the market is about to provide for these sorts of needs, whether it's in people's existing homes or in specialist accommodation, or whether this is something you think the Welsh Government's going to need to lead on.

Julie James AC: So, going backwards with your questions then, Jenny, on that last one, we're looking at a mixed economy, really. So, we haven't got very many of these yet in Wales, but we're accelerating the pace of building them. I want to encourage the regional partnership boards to go as fast as possible with that, alongside other care models. And one of the reasons I'm not putting hard-and-fast targets for how many of these to build and so on is because each regional board will have a different view about what's required because of the current mix of services in their area. So, what we want is not duplication but an integration of those sets of services around what, in this particular instance I went to visit this morning, has become the hub for those services, in a really great way, because people can be brought in to a space designed for the use of various equipment, to help them rehabilitate or re-enable, make the best use of their abilities. And then that equipment can be translated, once they've understood what's possible, using a disabled facilities grant, into their own home, in order to be able to keep them in that home, which is what most people want, as long as possible. And then there's also the chance of intermediate care or, indeed, even if you move into residential or nursing care, which some people do choose to do. And I met a lady this morning who was choosing to do that, but in a much more positive way, because she had a much better understanding of what she would be able to do for herself, and so did the home, and so she was likely to have a much more productive life, and her daughter was absolutely delighted with what had been done. So, it's a mixed picture; I wouldn't be able to say it would be the same everywhere in Wales, but we do expect that integrated service.
In terms of the numbers, I don't know the answer to that—that's Julie Morgan's portfolio—but we can get the answer for you. What I do know is that it absolutely is an invest-to-save, and that everywhere where we've worked together across the portfolios to do this, the families have been delighted, in human terms, but the local authority and the health board have been delighted in financial terms, because it is a very serious saving to the budgets of both of those organisations. And that's why, looking at the Gwent regional partnership board, and how integrated they've been in planning for this, it's a model we'd like the other boards to have a look at and spread out as fast as possible, with a view to getting as many people who are both out of county and out of country back into their own communities as fast as possible.

I thank the Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Offshore Marine Energy

Item 5 is next, and it's a statement by the Minister for Economy on offshore marine energy. And I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to take this opportunity to update Members on current activity within the emerging offshore marine sector in Wales and to outline the Welsh Government's ambition to deliver real economic benefits from this new and exciting sector. My focus today will be on the sector's potential impact on regional economies in providing sustainable and high-quality jobs here in Wales.
Our support for emerging technologies like offshore marine energy sit at the heart of our programme for government. It allows us to integrate our activity across departments to deliver for the people of Wales. In the short term, offshore wind is likely to provide the most economic opportunity. As an example, we are already home to RWE's three windfarms off the coast of north Wales, which sustain 240 high-quality operations and maintenance jobs at the port of Mostyn. These jobs, near to where windfarms are deployed, are to be expected from these developments. However, we're seeking to aim higher in seeking to attract a wider range of employment opportunities in high-value manufacturing, wind-turbine integration and deployment activities. In south Wales we have four test-and-demonstration projects under review in the Celtic sea. In addition, Blue Gem Wind has received a sea bed licencefrom the Crown Estate to develop a floating offshore windfarm off the south coast of Pembrokeshire.

Vaughan Gething AC: To put all of this activity into perspective, we currently generate 726 MW from offshore wind in Wales. We also have a credible pipeline to generate over 2.8 GW of offshore wind from a mixture of technologies by 2030. If we extend the timeline to 2035, then the project pipeline potentially increases to 6.8 GW. This does not include the 5 GW of offshore wind developments that the Irish Government is seeking to deploy by 2030, and this is likely to rise to 30 GW over the longer term.
This is an export opportunity that ports in north and south-west Wales are ideally placed to support and service. Our work to date suggests that up to 1,400 full-time equivalent jobs could be sustained by 500 MW of floating offshore wind projects. The number is lower, however, for the bottom-fixed sector, where the technology and the supply chains are more mature.
These are exciting developments for Wales. However, I'm concerned that they're nowhere near enough to unlock the large-scale investment required to build and grow our port and grid infrastructure. The UK Government and the Crown Estate need to provide long-term market visibility to beyond 2050 to help unlock investor confidence. I recognise that achieving this ambition means that the public and private sector will need to work closer together.
First and foremost, we need to unlock the potential within our ports. The UK Government's proposed £160 million floating offshore wind ports investment fund is a starting point. Our cross-Government initiative, the marine energy programme, is working closely with our four major port operators and project developers to fully understand what is required and, importantly, where the Welsh Government could make a difference.
We know that to unlock additional high-value employment opportunities, we need to ensure that Welsh ports' infrastructure is fit for purpose and offers an end-to-end solution for developers. Last week's agreement between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on free ports in Wales could make a valuable contribution to our broader vision for the economy. I expect that there will be a range of ambitious and innovative bids from across the whole of Wales when we publish our prospectus. I want to encourage strategic collaborations between ports that maximise the opportunities available for our economy.
The importance of proactive investment in our grid infrastructure is the other big-ticket item that lies outside of our direct responsibility. That is why we're leading the future grid in Wales project to work out the strategic grid investment necessary to meet Wales's needs. Welsh Government officials are also working with the UK Government, National Grid and Ofgem to try to ensure that Wales's grid infrastructure receives the proactive investment that is needed. Without this, we will not be able to maximise the economic benefits from the sector and, at the same time, minimise the environmental impact.
Where we have the necessary levers, we will invest to support our businesses to maximise their potential. This includes focusing on fair work and developing the local supply chain within the foundational economy. Aligned to this, I have recently announced investments of £0.5 million in Wales's trade and associated supply chain bodies, including Marine Energy Wales, the Celtic Sea Cluster and the Offshore Energy Alliance. Supply chain activity also sits at the centre of our manufacturing action plan.
Skills and workforce development is another critical area. We've already announced our intention to publish a net-zero skills action plan later this year. We see the development of the plan as a unique opportunity to achieve a just transition towards net zero. To ensure that we achieve success, we'll also need to build strong social partnerships, and we continue to work with trade unions to ensure that we get the best for our workforce.The emerging marine energy technologies of wave and tidal will also make a difference. They will reinforce Wales's credentials as a centre for excellence and help us to build a stronger, greener economy.
Our European regional development fund marine energy fund has invested £105 million across 13 projects. For example, we recently announced a £31 million investment in Menter Môn's Morlais infrastructure project off the coast of Anglesey. When I say 'we', I of course mean the announcement made by my colleague the climate change Minister.
We will also be looking to our new innovation strategy later this year to reinforce the focus on emerging marine technologies, including hydrogen generation from offshore marine energy. We know that innovation drives improvement and rapidly reduces costs. Bottom-fixed offshore wind is a success story of early investment that is now delivering cost-effective and clean renewable energy at scale. This success should be replicated across other offshore marine technologies.
The Welsh Government has extremely high ambitions for the future of this sector and its economic impacts with and for Wales. We will continue to actively work with, influence and lobby the UK Government to ensure that economic benefits for Wales continue to flow from this exciting and vital sector. I trust on that broad objective we will have cross-party support. I want Wales to reap the economic benefits from offshore marine technology and to generate renewable energy that will help to safeguard our natural environment for many generations to come. This is a key part of creating a stronger, greener and fairer Wales.

Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? Of course, offshore marine energy is something that I'm particularly interested in, given the constituency that I represent and the opportunities that that particular part of the Welsh coastline presents for the sector and, indeed, for the Welsh economy. Indeed, the Minister has mentioned the latest developments in relation to Blue Gem Wind in Pembrokeshire, who I met with very recently, and I'm pleased to be working closely with them on their innovative projects. Of course, we need to see more activity like this across Wales.
According to Marine Energy Wales's 'State of the Sector 2021' report,
'With the right level of support and investment to enable continued innovation, Wales could become one of the best and easiest places to produce offshore renewable energy.'
We know that when Governments invest in offshore technologies and developments, it makes those projects more attractive to private sector investment, and so perhaps the Minister can tell us how the Welsh Government will be prioritising funding in this field going forward? Will a specific pot of funding for offshore renewable energy projects in Wales now be developed, for example?
In the discussions that I've had with stakeholders, they've made it clear to me that marine planning reforms are also needed to deliver projects sooner so that Wales can maintain a competitive edge. In particular, more streamlined processes for marine planning and consenting would help to ensure that projects in Welsh waters are able to be delivered ahead of much larger projects in other parts of the UK. Therefore, perhaps the Minister will tell us what plans the Welsh Government has to reform the marine planning landscape so that we don't miss out on projects here in Wales.
Marine Energy Wales's state of the sector report also tells us that
'Of the companies who have built or are currently building devices in Wales...at least 50% of their supply chain has come from within Wales'.
So, we know that there are huge opportunities for businesses here in Wales. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to maximise opportunities for supply chain businesses in Wales and how the Welsh Government is supporting that work going forward.
Today's statement rightly refers to our ports and their infrastructure, and if we want Wales to be a global player in the field of marine renewables, then we need to see ourports better supported. To deliver offshore marine energy in Welsh waters and for Wales to realise the economic, social and environmental benefits available, port infrastructure investment is urgently needed to enable the projects coming through to be here in Wales. I'm aware that a current lack of suitable local facilities in west Wales could leave developers with little choice but to tow in technology from other countries such as Spain and France, where port infrastructure is more advanced.
Today's statement refers to the UK Government's £160 million floating wind ports fund, and I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us how the Welsh Government is supporting port development in Wales and ensure that Wales will capture as much funding as possible from that particular funding.
Now, this brings me on to strong inter-governmental relations, which are integral in identifying and maximising support for those projects. Today's statement refers to last week's agreement with the UK Government on the establishment of a free ports policy in Wales, and I welcome the agreement and the positive inter-governmental engagement that has taken place to get to this point. The Minister is right to say that a free port in Wales will have a significant economic impact and will bring in jobs and attract new industry and innovation to the area. I know that both Governments are now working together to co-design the process for free port site selection and both will have an equal say in all decisions throughout the implementation process. So, whilst it might be early days, perhaps the Minister could just provide some further details about the next stage in that particular process.
The Minister also refers to the importance of proactive investment in our grid infrastructure, which is, of course, outside the Welsh Government's remit. So, perhaps he could also tell us a bit more about the future grid in Wales project and how that work is progressing.
Now, I'm pleased that today's statement confirms that a net-zero skills action plan will be published later this year. The Minister is right to say that the development of the plan is a unique opportunity to achieve a just transition to net zero. I'd be grateful if the Minister could update us on the work that has been done to develop the plan so far so that we can get a sense of how the Welsh Government is planning to develop local labour markets going forward.
Finally, the Minister refers to the Welsh Government's upcoming innovation strategy, which will be important in developing emerging marine technologies. I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us more about the funding that will be allocated to support that particular strategy so that we can be sure that it has the resources to really make a difference.
Therefore, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, Wales has the geography to be an international player in this area, but it needs support from its Governments at all levels, and, on that note, can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon and say that I look forward to working constructively with him on this important agenda? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his series of questions. I'll do my best to answer the points as briefly as I can. I'll start with the point of difference and the innovation strategy. We're going to go out to consultation on that, hopefully shortly, so you'll see the draft strategy, and we'll then need to take account of the comments made before we then indicate the sort of funding choices we'll need to make around that. But, as we've indicated before in this Chamber, our innovation strategy previously has been supported by European funds, structural funds, that are no longer available to us, and they haven't been replaced like for like. What we'll need to do, though, is we'll need to be more successful at getting funds out of the UK research, development and innovation funding pot that is available. More than £20 billion is supposed to be available over a period of years, and in previous times that has largely gone around the south-east of England, around the golden triangle, and also to literally a couple of institutions in Scotland. That's an issue for us, where we will need to gain more out of those UK funding pots to replace the money that has not been replaced on a like-for-like basis following our departure from the EU.
On the rest of your points and questions, I think there is a much more constructive engagement to be had that doesn't involve direct criticism of the UK Government. So, I think when you look at the investment choices, there'll be a need for private investment, for the Welsh Government to support some investment choices as well, but also for the UK Government too. For example, your question about the grid: well, the reason why we're going through the future grid Wales process is to understand where and why to make strategic investment choices, and, without those, that will hamper our ability to actually lever not just the power itself but the economic opportunity as well. We don't want all of the landing source for the Celtic sea, for example, to be on the Devon or Somerset coast, so we're going to need to have grid infrastructure that is fit for purpose for what we're doing in the future, and that means proactive investment. It's the point that my colleague Julie James has regularly made, not just in internal meetings but with counterparts in the UK Government. Without that sort of choice being made, it will hold us back.
However, in addition to that, we'll need to see some of those investment choices and the line of sight that I talked about in the statement for how long the future supply line is, for how much licences are going to be made available. That will then mean that investors will have enough confidence to make significant investments in port infrastructure, because you're right, other ports are in a different place in terms of the size and the scale of what they're going to need to handle. Now, that's a real opportunity for Welsh ports, to have that investment made and then to make sure that deepwater ports that are nearer to the opportunities in the Celtic sea and the North sea can actually take advantage of those, and I definitely want to see that happen—so, a clearer line of sight with a longer term that will allow both private investment choices to be made and also the case for public sector investment where needed. And when it comes to us putting our money where our mouth is on that, of course, the announcement I referred to for the European programmes money that we have to agree—the £31 million going to Morlais to make sure the infrastructure is there so they can land the energy—well, that really does show we've been prepared to make significant investments with money that we control to make sure that those opportunities are realised.
The further point that I made and that you asked about, about skills for the sector as well, that will be really important. So, that's both work with providers, it's both work with the sector, and then understanding how we then have a pipeline for skills acquisition. Now, the difficulty there is, without a clearer sight on the pipeline of where the work's going to go, we're going to need to understand how and where we try to give people new skills to ensure that they're ready to undertake the jobs as and when they come. So, being able to plan that successfully together will be really important, and I do think that the net-zero skills plan that we'll provide later this year will be helpful in doing that, but the conversations with the sector will be even more important in advance on it.
On the marine planning landscape, you'll be aware that the responsible Minister is in the Chamber as well—I'm looking forward to her second statement of the day—but we have recently published the first marine plan for Wales, setting out planning policy. But I do know, as well as the advantage of certainty, that the Minister for Climate Change is always ready to look at whether we can have a better system that will deliver on the economic opportunities that are available and the impact we can have on climate change, and at the same time the balance with the natural environment as well.
On what we have done to help the supply chain, I indicated in my statement that we've invested about £0.5 million in supporting the supply chain. That's money we've given to Marine Energy Wales that I've signed off, together with moneys for the Offshore Energy Alliance, dealing with the supply chain across north Wales and north-west England. So, again, there's active conversation between our officials on making sure that those opportunities are real, and the supply chain locally, including many small and medium-sized enterprises, are able to take advantage of that, and us helping to ensure that businesses are ready and able to take advantage of the opportunity.
And I'll finish with two points, quickly, Deputy Llywydd. That is, on the port infrastructure fund, it is a welcome step forward, but the eligibility criteria aren't yet available. So, I'm not able to talk to you much about the criteria, which have yet to be published, but we are hopeful they will be published in the near future this summer to allow people to then think about bidding, and we're very keen that Welsh ports get a proper share of that money that is going to be made available.
And on free ports, it's a good thing that we've reached agreement on terms that are acceptable to both Governments. We'll be joint decision makers, there'll be an equity of funding with free ports in England, and the prospectus for bids will be coming up over the summer. And I do think it'll be important to see bids that help us to achieve our ambitions and are aligned with Welsh Government policy frameworks, including, of course, the opportunities in marine energy as well as fair work. But I'll have more to say on that when we actually are able to provide the joint prospectus.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Minister for his statement today.

Luke Fletcher AS: As we already know, Wales is well positioned to play a global leading role in marine energy, with 1,200 km of coastline and up to 6 GW of generating capacity through the potential for wave and tidal stream. If we are to reach net zero by 2050, or perhaps before, we need to massively increase renewable energy generation in Wales. The Minister and Deputy Minister said in a letter to the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee that, since 2019, work has been under way to stimulate renewable tidal power generation in the seas around Wales and to help to support other forms of marine energy generation. As a recent report on the Welsh Government's marine policies by the Senedd's climate change committee makes clear, with reference to evidence from Jess Hooper, there has been a lack of policy support for tidal range developments from the UK Government, and that the large scale of some projects meant that they did not fall within the competence of Welsh Government, such as the north Wales tidal lagoon project. What's clear is that a lack of powers, a lack of policy support and a lack of financial resources, not to mention severe grid constraints, skills gaps and insufficient port infrastructure, are seriously holding us back when it comes to fully realising our marine energy potential, our ability to respond to climate, and our ability to build a greener and fairer economy in the process. Is now not the time to seek greater powers over large-scale renewable energy projects? I'd like to ask the Minister what conversations he's had with his ministerial colleagues in Welsh Government as well as the UK Government, regarding the further devolution of powers over large-scale energy projects, so those that are above 350MW, does he agree that we need further powers in order to realise our potential for offshore energy development?
Now, the report also notes the number of jobs that will be created through offshore renewables, with Marine Energy Wales stating that floating offshore wind alone is expected to generate 3,000 jobs by 2030, if the early mover opportunity is seized. David Jones of Simply Blue Energy said that, because of the predicted need for jobs in the sector, which is, by the way, 70,000 by 2026 to deliver the current programme, his company had engaged with local schools and further education, focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics and skills development. As part of the Deputy Minister for Climate Change's deep dive on renewable energy, he confirmed that Welsh Government will develop a net-zero skills action plan by spring 2022. Well, of course, we're in spring 2022, and, whilst I welcome the Government's continued commitment to delivering on that plan, could the Minister provide a new rough estimate on when we will see this plan? Because to achieve our ambitions around net zero, I can't emphasise enough how important it will be to get to grips with the skills gap in the green economy, and I would be interested if the Minister could also provide timescales for implementation and the Government's targets with regard to green job creation in the sector by 2050 as soon as possible.
Finally, according to UKRI's own figures for 2018 and 2019, research councils and Innovate UK spent £5.4 billion across the UK, only £131 million of which was spent in Wales. This amounted to 2.4 per cent of the total and £42 per capita, the lowest such figure among the UK's comparable nations and regions. If research spending were devolved and fed through the Barnett formula, then the Welsh Government could expect to receive an allocation equivalent to around 5.9 per cent of the total. Given that Wales lags behind the rest of the UK when it comes to research and innovation funding, I'd like to hear if, or rather how, the Minister plans to scale up research and innovation funding in the marine energy sector to help them develop and deliver positive outcomes.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions. I think they're in three or four broad categories. On tidal energy, yes, we think that Wales has a real opportunity still to be at the forefront of an emerging sector. It is a matter of well-understood regret from this Government's point of view that the Swansea lagoon has not been supported previously, including following a review by a former Conservative energy Minister, who described it as a 'no regrets' project. We still need to be able to deploy a significant tidal project to understand and to learn from that about the further deployment and economic advantage that can be gained as well as, of course, the energy generation from it. We're interested in the Blue Eden project that Swansea council are leading the engagement with developers on. They appear to have a private investor who's prepared to do that. The challenge for us is the scale of each project, as you identified. We do think that there should be further powers with this Government in terms of consenting. We've also been clear about our view that we would rather have further powers on the Crown Estate. None of these things are a surprise and have been said on many occasions by the First Minister, by myself, and indeed the climate change Minister, on a regular basis.
However, what we want to do is to maximise the opportunity we have within our current powers to do all that we can in a way that will help to see those first projects take off, because, without the first significant scale project, we're still going to be talking about potential and what if and what may be. We do know that, from a tidal power point of view, we have lots to exploit and lots to look forward to. I certainly want to be in a position where we learn the lessons of what's happened with onshore and fixed offshore wind. The early movers are people who invested early and then took lots of the advantage in both research and development and, indeed, manufacture. I'd much rather that Wales was then exporting that technology and know-how to other parts of the world rather than buying a mature set of technology that someone else has developed and all the economic gain that goes along with that.
I think that comes back to your point about innovation funding, which was touched on in questions with Paul Davies as well. Given that we have lost money now that we have left the European Union—and it's unarguable that we have less money than we would otherwise have done—our challenge is that, given that we had a funding stream that came from that into the innovation sector here, how we replace that successfully. Now, as I said, the positive is that the UK Government are looking to invest more than £20 billion over a number of years into innovation. The challenge is that if it goes out in the same way that it has done previously—and you've highlighted this—that money will be largely taken up in the golden triangle. And once you start to have a system that repeats itself, well, it's very hard to break in. And the positive aspect of this is that we're not saying, 'Give Wales money because we deserve it.' We're saying, 'Give Wales money because we have excellent research here as well, within our sectors, within our higher education and, indeed, within our business and applied sector as well. So, there's actually a real gain to be made and do it close to where you're going to deploy it as well.' So, I think there are a lot of really sensible and logical advantages in doing that. So, to make real some of the promises that have been made will not just be the right thing from the politics point of view, it will actually be practically the right thing to do from an economic benefit and advantage point of view as well.
And certainly the Minister for Climate Change and I are very keen to take advantage of Wales being an early mover within these sectors as well. I think we have lots to offer and lots to gain, and the net-zero skills plan will be part of that. But, as I've indicated, we expect to publish that this year. I'm very keen that we get it right. I'd much rather we were in a position to have published it or to give a definitive time for when it will come out now. I can't do that, but what I will do is say that, as soon as we've got it right, we'll publish it, and I'll happily indicate not just to him but to other Members when that plan is expected to be published.

We have almost reached the end of our allocated time, so I ask Members, because there are still five who wish to speak, to not make speeches, please, but to ask your questions only, and I'm sure the Minister will be succinct in his answers as well, to allow everyone to be able to be called. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, you were looking directly at me when you said that, then. [Laughter.] I'll try to keep it very succinct, in that case. Can I welcome the tone and the substance of this statement today, because it seems to show that there is a genuine effort to be really constructive and engaged between Governments, but also I have to say in the context of the policy framework here in Wales? The list of things, which I will not go through, all scream that any investment, whether it's in the future innovation from the UK Government, whether it's the free ports development, or whether it's the ports investment, needs to be done hand in glove with Welsh Government, but also the existing regional funding, investment framework, partners in Wales, the skills investment, and so on. And that will provide opportunities for Wales and for the UK in hitting its renewable targets. So, could I ask the Minister for his assurance that what we've heard reflected here today in this Senedd, in this Welsh Parliament, is equally being reflected in discussion with Ministers, in Westminster and on the floor of the Senedd? And finally, can he also make sure that—

You are—[Inaudible.]

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: —the environmental aspects of this are also safeguarded? All of those organisations want to see this happen, like WWF, like the Wildlife Trusts, like the Marine Conservation Society, but they want, Minister, to make sure that it's done also protecting the wildlife and the biodiversity that we want to safeguard for future generations.

Vaughan Gething AC: On your final point, that's absolutely the perspective that Welsh Ministers take. We're very, very keen to see the economic benefits. We're very, very keen to see the renewable energy benefits, knowing that will positively impact upon the environment around us. But, creating any form of power generation is something where you need to think about what is the impact on the environment. And so, you see that in bottom-fixed energy, you'll see that in floating, and so that's why we're very keen in the marine planning policy statement to be clear about the balance and what we expect developers to be able to demonstrate about how they will go about deploying and then developing that power.
On your first point, I'm very keen that we see development that takes place within a context where we have agreed frameworks and agreed ways of working already. We have economic regions in Wales that are in line with the climate change Minister's former endeavours as the local government Minister, and those are agreed regions, and we've agreed with the UK Government that, in the shared prosperity fund—. For all the points of difference we have, we managed to agree that the regions of Wales will be those regions and not different ones, to plan and work together economically. That's really important. So, local government and the growth deals will have the same footprint as those regions, so we don't need to design new and alternative structures. And I expect that the policy framework we will carry on developing will be in that way, and we will carry on being constructive partners. We'll stand up for the best interests of Wales, but we've got to look to work with people as our starting point and where we want to get to.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thanks, Minister. It is good that we are welcoming this new renewable energy impetus that's coming, but do you think it's enough that the renewable energy deep dive only commits to work with Natural Resources Wales and key stakeholders to identify marine strategic resource areas by 2023, and to provide guidance to signpost appropriate and inappropriate areas for development? Now, you know our views on these benches: we want to see the Welsh Government use its legislative ability to create a legal duty to form a national marine development plan and to keep it under regular review. And that's supported by Wales Environment Link, who did inform our Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee that sectoral locational guidance, as currently proposed by the Welsh Government, is not enough. A statutory spatial plan must look cross sector at either a regional or national level to address cumulative impacts on our marine ecosystems from all marine users. And will you also look to—? I could see the Minister for Climate Change actually agreeing that there has to be these close workings between her department and yours, but will you ensure that a spatial approach is taken to marine planning, to guide the siting of these important developments away from the most ecologically sensitive areas? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, that is the approach that we are seeking to take. We're seeking to make sure that development takes place in appropriate areas that take account of the environmental impact of developments. That's exactly the point that has been made in response to Huw Irranca-Davies; it's exactly the approach that Welsh Ministers will seek to take. We think it's entirely possible to responsibly deploy more of this energy-generating potential and to gain the economic benefit, without compromising our environment.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thanks for the statement. I welcome the focus on the potential for ports to benefit from the next generation of offshore energy generation. I've spoken with developers like BP, for example, encouraging investment in Holyhead as an offshore wind hub. The Minister will have heard me many times encouraging an honest debate about free ports and the need, for example, for the UK Government to properly fund free ports in Wales, and I'm very glad that negotiations led to that u-turn, where Wales will now be treated on equal terms with English ports, that Welsh and UK Governments will equally decide on granting free port status in Wales. I think it was well worth holding out rather than accepting the pretty poor and ambiguous offer that was on the table originally. I've written to Isle of Anglesey County Council today and I'm looking forward to working with the local authority and other partners to ensure that benefits for Holyhead are maximised.
A very brief question about tidal stream, though. I welcome the £31 million in European funding approved by Welsh Government to develop the Morlais tidal stream demonstration zone. The infrastructure is going on, but what can Welsh Government do to make sure that blockages are removed and that the deployment of the tidal stream technology itself can be deployed as quickly as possible?

Vaughan Gething AC: Okay, so on your final point, it depends which blockages you refer to. We've just had a conversation about the environmental impact, and it depends what other blockages are being referred to, whether it's pre deployment or, actually, the ability to manufacture and generate at scale, and where the interest is from companies. We do know that there is a range of companies already looking at deploying tidal stream turbines—companies from Wales as well. So, we're very keen to see that move forward, because, as I say, we want to generate—. The reason I'm making this statement today is because this is about focusing on the economic benefit from generating power in a much cleaner way. If the Member wants to have a more focused discussion on potential blockages, I'd be happy to have that discussion with him and partners in and around Anglesey, where I know that there is lots of potential.
On your point about free ports, the Welsh Government was never going to agree to a process where free ports in Wales were funded to a lesser degree than free ports in England. We were very clear about that. We've been consistent in our ask, and we've managed to negotiate something that meets our objectives. I would just say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that within the Chamber today a number of people have been championing their own local ports as beneficiaries of any free ports competition. I understand why Members will do that. The agreement at present is that the UK Government are only prepared to fund one free port in Wales, but there is a potential opportunity if more than one compelling case is made that it may be possible for it to happen. And there are strong cases made in the north and the south-west, and others I am sure. I can't quite get into agreeing on one of those cases, given that I could well be a co-decision-making Minister, together with the UK Minister, on a successful bid. I just want to politely make that point to all those people who will carry on making their local case.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Minister, you mentioned wanting to be an early mover on this, which is something that I welcome, and given my constituency I'd like to focus on floating offshore wind. So, how are we best able to utilise the small and medium-sized enterprises that are already available who've been working in the hydrocarbon and petrochemical industries over the years, and utilise their transition away from the energies of the past, and utilisethe technologies and the skills that they have to benefit the supply chain to develop these industries off the coast of Pembrokeshire? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. I think that there is lots of potential for people who have been involved in former industries that are unlikely to be future industries for the longer term. People who have engineering, research and development skills, there are opportunities there. When you think about the potential for hydrogen and the infrastructure that is going to be needed, we are going to need to have significant UK Government investment, as well as private sector investment, to get the infrastructure right.
There are choices to be made around what part—if any at all—non-green hydrogen has to play in getting our infrastructure right, to make sure that we don't hold back the opportunity to develop green hydrogen from this offshore marine energy generation. There are real economic opportunities in all of that, and it's no surprise that there are people who are engaged in current petrochemical industries who are interested in investing in this area.
When you think about the number of people that are bidding for, or have already successfully acquired, licences:British Gas, Centrica, BP and Shell and others are all in this space because they want to carry on being energy generation companies. So, while we are not here to further promote the oil and gas industry, we will need to work with oil and gas companies to properly take account of what they are prepared to do to invest in the future of renewable power, and that will undoubtedly take in the Member's constituency.

And finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, you will be aware that, in addition to the tidal sort of energy that has been talked about in south Wales, there has also been discussion about the prospect of a north Wales tidal lagoon, which could of course create up to 22,000 jobs, according to Wrexham Glyndŵr University, and generate renewable energy for up to a million homes. The scale of this would be from Prestatyn to Llandudno, offering some flood protection benefits as well.
In order to unlock the £7 billion-worth of investment to get that project done, there needs to be some seed funding of about £50 million to undertake some environmental impact assessments. Will the Welsh Government look at making a contribution towards that and working with the UK Government in order to deliver what I believe could be a hugely transformative project for the whole of the UK's energy industry?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I agree that there is significant potential within and around north Wales for tidal energy to be successfully generated at a large level with significant economic return. Our challenge is how we work with the private sector and the UK Government to get that off the ground, and it goes back to the point about needing to have a demonstrator project of significant scale to help unlock those technologies. That's why there's disappointment about the Swansea lagoon not having gone ahead.
But, we will carry on working constructively with the UK Government and others. We have shown—for example, in the investment that we have made in Morlais—that we are prepared to carry on investing, to see that industry come to fruition in the huge potential in north, south and west Wales. So, I can't give you a guarantee about future funding, and £50 million may sound like seed funding to you, but I can tell you that, in managing budgets within the Government, there isn't a spare £50 million around. But, we want to have a constructive conversation, as I say, with the UK Government and with the private sector, to realise the significant economic potential for Wales and beyond.

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: Reducing vulnerability to flood risk and the independent review of the 2020-21 flooding

Item 6 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on reducing vulnerability to flood risk and the independent review of the 2020-21 flooding. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The First Minister, the Deputy Minister and I have made clear that addressing flood risk is a priority for this Government. We have put in place, through the flood strategy, a comprehensive programme that sets out our long-term measures for reducing flood risk across Wales. The co-operation agreement commits us to deliver an increase in investment for flood and coastal erosion risk management and mitigation over the course of this Senedd term as well.
We announced recently the largest ever package of investment to reduce flood risk across Wales, with over £71 million of funding being provided by the Welsh Government this year. We intend to invest over £214 million over the next three years to help protect at least 45,000 homes from flood risk. This package of support represents a renewed strategic approach to provide the necessary financial support to our flood risk management authorities, while accelerating delivery and building our resilience to climate change with a stronger pipeline of flood schemes.
That notwithstanding, it is vital that we do everything that we can to learn from past events, so that we can improve our approach to tackling flood risk. The devastating floods in February 2020, which created widespread trauma, hardship and financial loss for thousands of families and scores of businesses across Wales, were a stark reminder of the scale of the challenges that we face, particularly against the backdrop of climate change, the impacts of which we are already clearly experiencing.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Over the last few months, Plaid Cymru designated Member Siân Gwenllian and I have been working closely to develop the scope, approach to delivery and draft terms of reference for securing the co-operation agreement commitment to commission an independent review of local government section 19 reports and Natural Resources Wales reports into extreme flooding in the winter of 2020-21. So, I am pleased to announce today that Professor Elwen Evans QC has agreed to lead this review. Professor Evans is one of the UK's leading criminal barristers. She led the prosecution in the April Jones murder case and the defence team in the Gleision mine disaster case. Having recently led the independent review of the Mayhill riots last year, Professor Evans brings substantial experience and authority to this review, and I am delighted that she has agreed to lead it.
Section 19 investigations are an integral part of Wales's flood risk management framework, mandating local authorities to assess the causes of significant events of flooding and enabling them to provide data models, improve maintenance regimes or identify alleviation works or measures. There is no statutory time frame for undertaking or completing section 19 investigations, but our flood strategy makes clear that they should be proportionate to the scale of flooding and take account of the understanding of the issues or the type of remediation measure needed. Professor Evans's review will consider all the available evidence provided in the section 19 reports and NRW's own review into the flooding during 2020-21, and its impacts and how this might inform priorities for flood risk management in the future. The review will focus on assessing and prioritising the recommendations made in the different reports and will identify recommendations for action by the relevant organisations.
In particular, Professor Evans’s review will consider key findings, shared concerns, identify areas for improvement and good practice, successes and lessons learned. The review will build on previous reviews, look at other relevant reports, Senedd committee findings and national policy, such as the Wales flood strategy, making best use of resources and maximising value for money. The designated Member and I have asked Professor Evans to consider the support required to undertake the review and the timescales for delivery. We are going to allow Professor Evans sufficient time to gather and assess the available evidence before she comes to a conclusion about how long the review will take, so that it can offer a meaningful and robust conclusion. I look forward to receiving the findings of the review so the designated Member and I can consider how best to act on its recommendations.
The effects of climate change mean that the pressure on our existing infrastructure will increase significantly. With that in mind, work is also in hand to progress the other co-operation agreement objective in relation to flooding—the commitment to invite the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales to assess how the nationwide likelihood of flooding of homes, businesses and infrastructure can be minimised by 2050. In his recent remit letter, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change asked Dr David Clubb, chair of the NICW, to take forward this commitment. NICW's work programme is now being finalised. The designated Member and I will be discussing this further to help inform the scope and focus of the NICW review. A public appointments process to appoint NICW commission members is now under way, and we will be making a further announcement in the next few weeks. In parallel, Wales's independent flood and coastal erosion committee, chaired by Martin Buckle, is taking forward two separate reviews prescribed by our flood strategy. The first, which is nearing completion, has explored the financial resources available to flood risk management authorities to help maximise access to funding and investment opportunities to support flood delivery. I anticipate the committee's final report will be submitted in June.
In reflecting on the devastating flood impacts across Wales in early 2020, the flood strategy recognised that while there is a robust legislative framework, the understanding of the roles and responsibilities of different bodies are not entirely straightforward for the public. The second review being undertaken by the flood committee is focused on assessing the scope of current flood risk management responsibilities and the need for legislative changes. The committee will be embarking on a consultation on its draft report in June, with the final report being submitted to the Welsh Government this autumn. These reviews form a part of the Welsh Government's response in adapting to increasing flood and water-related risks arising from climate change. They will complement our investment programmes, new planning guidance on flooding, initiatives to enhance sustainable drainage systems and nature-based solutions, in addition to the legislative reforms we are bringing forward to improve coal tip safety.
The impacts of climate change are already being felt across our society and the natural environment, and we can expect risks to increase in the decades ahead, even as we work to cut our emissions and limit further global warming. In addition to the increasing flood risk, we can also expect greater impacts from storms, heatwaves, drought and wildfires. Our response to flood risk is part of our holistic approach to build resilience to the far-reaching impacts of climate change across all communities and sectors. At the same time, we are determined to ensure fairness, both in terms of how the impacts of climate change itself are felt across society and the globe, and in terms of the burden of measures we take to address it.
This Government and Plaid Cymru are working together in the best interest of our communities to learn from the past, make changes where these are necessary and develop good practices. The outcome of the reviews we're announcing today will enable us to improve on how we deliver flood protection to reduce flood risk for everyone in Wales. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I thank the Minister again for her statement. We know that communities across Wales from the Conwy valley to Rhondda Cynon Taf have made abundantly clear, over the times that they've seen shocking flooding incidents, that they want to see independent inquiries undertaken. Indeed, a petition raised in 2020 called for an independent inquiry into the flooding in Rhondda Cynon Taf, and despite there being around 6,000 signatures, the Welsh Government have simply refused to co-operate. Similarly, calls for an inquiry into flooding in the Conwy valley have been blocked previously by this Welsh Labour Government. I can remind the Minister of me raising concerns about flooding incidents in the Conwy valley. From 2016, we had several serious flooding issues, and at the time, we were calling for independent inquiries to be undertaken. Much was given at that time about how well section 19 reports were actually helping to inform Welsh Government, local authorities and our communities about why these incidents kept repeating.
I think one of the things you still seem to recognise in your statement is that section 19 investigations are an integral part of Wales's flood risk management, but there's no statutory time frame for undertaking or completing section 19 investigations. I know from flooding in my own constituency—. I think one incident saw about 60 to 70 homes really devastated, and it can take up to two years for the results, the responses to those section 19s. So, I do hope, now that Professor Evans is reviewing section 19 reports, that one of the fundamentals to come out of that will be that that is far too long a time frame, and that these things should be as quickly turned round as possible.
Plaid Cymru have been vocal in their support of independent inquiries in both the Conwy valley and Rhondda, so it will be interesting to know what their views are now. The co-operation deal does not promise proper inquiries, only the independent review of the local government section 19s. Whilst I would be pleased if you could outline the terms of reference for the review, can you confirm that each section 19 report published following flooding in winter 2021 will be part of this review? I'm aware that the recommendations of that report have not been fully actioned and fulfilled as of yet. Do you agree that work on existing recommendations should continue whilst this review is taking place?
I was, of course, a member of the inquiry into the Welsh Government's response to the February 2020 flooding, and our report published in 2020 highlighted then that the level of revenue funding meant the authorities were a long way away from being fully prepared and resilient, and that's notwithstanding the unknown climate changes that we know will face us, but we don't know the extent. In fact, authorities receive the same level of revenue funding regardless of the flood risk within their area. So, I'd say to the Minister that we need to be doing this now where it counts. For example, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council received 4.54 per cent of the national revenue funding, despite having an estimated 21 per cent of the national surface water flood risk to manage. The committee and I were clear that the Welsh Government's approach to revenue allocation for flooding should take account of current and projected future flood risk in local authority areas.
I have a question for you, Minister. Last February you clarified that the allocation of future years' revenue based on current or future flood and/or coastal erosion risk is something you could consider. Have you decided to take projected flood risk into account? As the Climate Change, Environment, and Rural Affairs Committee explained in 2020, it is now more important than ever for the Welsh Government and its partners to have robust arrangements in place to respond to such events. But you know what my view is: we should be far more proactive and not be concentrating on reactive measures.
Some 2,298 properties in Wales, Llywydd, are at high risk of tidal flooding, 9,652 properties are at a high risk of river flooding, and 35,278 properties are at a high risk of surface flooding. In fact, there are currently over 245,000 properties, as I speak here today, at risk of flooding in Wales. With such a level of risk to manage, I do think our nation would benefit from having a body that is 100 per cent focused on flood mitigation. And rather than expect local authorities and NRW, which have diverse responsibilities, to lead on flooding—and, let's be honest, where NRW are concerned, they are seriously understaffed—do you agree that there is now some logic, Minister, in establishing a national flood agency? Thank you. Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. Just to start right where you finished, no, I don't think that at all. I think one of the things that we absolutely need to do is integrate this work, and the idea that you have a separate quango for every single bit of climate change where it stands alone and does it's own thing—I just think that's a recipe for absolute disaster, myself. So, I don't agree with that at all. I think what's really important is to have a national strategy for flood and coastal erosion risk management, which is what we have, that we do that alongside all the partners that need to be engaged in that, and that's a very wide variety of partners, and that we understand what those mitigation measures look like.
It's easy to say that we need to do everything we can to mitigate these risks, but then every time we come up with a mitigation, to oppose each individual one. So, for example, surface water drainage schemes, which make a huge difference to surface water problems, have been consistently said by your party to inhibit development of housing and other construction projects. But they're absolutely essential if we're going to stop the flood risk that we have and, indeed, the flood storm risk of overflows into our precious rivers and so on. We have to accept that, if we want to have these schemes, the mitigations are not always optimal for every single sector of society and we all have to adapt to them. Likewise, we cannot continue to just build on floodplains and expect that to be perfectly fine. We have to adapt our strategies for building, living and using our planet's resources accordingly.
I'm also a little bit bemused by the start of your contribution, Janet, because you seem to be saying that we weren't having the review, when the whole point of my statement is to announce the review that you'd asked for. So, I'm a little bit confused by that. But just to say again, I'm delighted that Professor Evans is undertaking this entirely independent review. Obviously, one of the things she'll look at is whether the system is fit for purpose, how it integrates together and what the optimal outcome should be. I look forward to receiving her recommendations, alongside the Plaid Cymru designated Member, and being able to act on those recommendations accordingly.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to welcome today's statement and thank you very much, Minister, for your statement. The increase in instances of flooding due to climate change poses a major risk to communities, individuals and to businesses in Wales. It's entirely correct and to be welcomed that the voices and experiences of those people and businesses across Wales are going to be heard, via the independent review, so that we can learn how to protect and safeguard Wales from flooding in future, to protect our most vulnerable communities and to prevent further related destructive events.
The announcement of the name of Elwen Evans as the individual who will be leading and chairing the independent review is, I think, to be very much welcomed. Bearing in mind her extensive experience, I'm sure that she will undertake a thorough and fair review that will give some certainty to local communities. Minister, it's that certainty and that element of comfort that are the items or elements that I would like to focus on this afternoon.
What happened during the storms of 2020 has traumatised people, and continues to do so, and they don't feel safe in their homes every time it rains heavily to this day. Without certainty regarding what lies behind these cases of flooding, and without robust solutions, this torment will continue. Progress with this review, of course, is an important step forward, but could you tell us, please, what support will be available to support the mental health of those who have suffered trauma, and the psychological impact as a result of flooding?
Something that would provide additional reassurance would be an early warning system. Plaid Cymru has called for the development, the funding and the introduction of early warning systems so that communities can be warned about flooding and other disasters before they happen. Such systems would be a boon, and I'd ask you, please, Minister, to give us the latest information with regard to the introduction of these systems and how such systems would then be funded.
And finally, to return to the review and its remit, I am very pleased that the review, which is taking place, of course, because of the influence of Plaid Cymru, builds upon work that has already been done and provides consistency in terms of all of the recommendations that have already been made. So, could you tell us a little more about that element of the remit, please? Thank you very much. I'm sorry, I don't know what happened with the sound there, so I don't know if I cut out halfway through, but thank you.

Julie James AC: I heard you perfectly well all the way through, certainly through the translation there, Delyth. So, thank you very much for that. Just on that last one first, we have a number of reviews going on into slightly different elements of the flood and coastal management programmes that we have in place. So, without compromising in any way Professor Evans's ability to make any recommendations that she sees fit to do, we've asked her to liaise with the other reviews and to just see where they can assist each other without duplication. But I cannot emphasise enough that that in no way inhibits any of the reviews from making the recommendationsthey want to make, and if they turn out to be contradictory, well, then we'll have to see what we can do to come across that. But we hope, of course, that they won't and that there'll be a cohesive programme at the end, but I thought it was more important to have the independence guaranteed than to try and make them come to some kind of mashed-together conclusions. I anticipate, though, since they're all very professional reviews, that we will have a coherent set of outcomes from those reviews that we will be able to implement.
The designated Member, Siân Gwenllian, and myself have been very clear that the review will be published. It will be Professor Evans's review, it's up to her what it says, but we will publish it and then we will respond to it. We will provide a Government response to that and a combined response to that and we will publish the response to that and then we will implement the recommendations as a result of that. So, we're very clear about that.
The review also has the opportunity to reach out to elected members in affected areas and specifically ask for comments back from that elected member. Now, I cannot emphasise enough that this is not a public inquiry, so we're not looking for evidence of that sort. But we do feel that elected members will probably be able to reflect the views and trauma experienced by the communities that suffered the floods and that the elected members will be well-placed to provide written evidence to the review of those feelings and the aftermath of that. And I'm sure that recommendations will follow. No Member should feel inhibited from proactively providing that evidence, but Professor Evans, I'm sure, will be reaching out very specifically to Members of this Senedd and of Parliament in areas that were particularly impacted, and we all know where they are; we've discussed them a lot. So, I hope that we'll be able to get some quantification of the kinds of trauma and so on, and what kind of support that the communitywould like to see as a result of that, Delyth. We have provided some support via the resilience fora and the flood risk management authorities, but one of the points of the review is to get to the bottom of some of those personal issues, if you like, about what happens when you don't feel safe.
In terms of the early warning systems, I don't have any problem with early warning systems. The difficulty we have is that some of the incidents of flooding across Wales—in fact, a large number of the worst ones—were as a result of sudden flash flooding caused by extreme weather events. So, I'm no expert in this, but it seems very difficult to me to understand quite how that would work. But we'll investigate it. You know that we have really good weather predictions, so we were able to get some of the floodgates and sandbagging and all that kind of thing out, but there's no doubt at all that we were taken unawares by the severity of some of the storms in 2020 and 2021, and we saw the result of that, didn't we? And we were very lucky over this last winter—I'll be superstitious a minute and touch the desk of wood, because we're not quite out of the storm season yet—that we didn't have a repeat. But that's one of the issues, isn't it, because these extreme weather events, which used to be very rare, are becoming more and more common, and that's part of the reason we need to review once more whether our resilience approach to this and our planning in advance is fit for purpose.
And just to say one last thing, we're not waiting on the outcome of the review. The First Minister and I took part in resilience training fora for all of the resilience bodies around Wales and the blue-light responders and first responders, just to make sure, before last winter, that we were in prime position to be able to respond should we need to. So, just to reassure communities across Wales that nobody is waiting for the outcome of the review before putting those things in place.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Minister, I welcome that flood risk is a priority for Government. It's frightening and devastating, and I welcome this package of funding as well for it. Many of our old drainage systems cannot take the amount of monsoon-type rainfall we're experiencing more frequently, and roadside gullies and drainage systems need emptying more frequently. Plus, the responsibility of ditches, culverts and watercourses need mapping, so that residents know who to contact, as well as understanding what measures they themselves can take if a flood alert is in place. I remember we used to get flood alerts from NRW as well as the Met Office as a local authority, which were really useful. Following cuts in public service funding during years of austerity, we have lost the expertise that local authorities and NRW are now competing for to deal with drainage and to help residents as well. So, what's Welsh Government doing, working with public authorities, to increase the expertise and to help residents deal with these increasing flooding events? And, apologies, this might've really been a question for the local government Minister. So, thank you.

Julie James AC: So, I work very closely with my colleague the local government Minister on these issues, and we've had many discussions with local government colleagues about resilience for it and how they work and how the flood responses—. And the local authority has blue-light responders in a number of areas that actually work.
We've obviously just had the local government elections, so the new cabinet teams will be informed, and my colleague Rebecca Evans and I will be having a series of meetings with various new cabinet members across the piece, to meet them first and welcome them to post, but also to just understand what's required in terms of training, assistance and just making those vital connections to make sure that we all work happily together. And again, my local government Minister colleague and I divide it up a little bit in terms of which groups we meet, but we do bring it all back together through the WLGA, to make sure we have a coherent programme, and obviously led by Rebecca in the overarching bit of that.
Part of the point of some of the reviews that we're having undertaken, particularly by the committee, is to see where the responsibility currently lies, and that the regulations that drive those responses are in the right place. Is it fit for purpose, do we have the right split between the Welsh Government responsibility, NRW, the water companies, local authorities? You know, is that correct? So, I'm looking forward to coming back with the outcome of that, and then to discuss how that new regime, if it is new, works, or if the outcome is that it's fit for purpose at the moment, to embed that in. So, we await the outcome of the review, really, to have a look at that, partly driven by the need to ensure that we have skilled staff in order to be able to staff that up. I don't want to prejudge the outcome of the review, but it does seem quite spread about at the moment, so I anticipate that they will make some recommendations around making sure we have those skilled staff in the right place in the right agency.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful to you, Minister, for your statement. I recently met with a chartered surveyor representing an historic estate in south Pembrokeshire who are currently looking at plans to increase the viability of a pub, which just so happens to be situated next to a river. Part of these plans see accommodation being created in upstairs, first-floor rooms of the pub, currently used for storage, adding to the residential area currently used by the pub landlord, also on the first floor. However, the property is located on a zone C2 category floodplain, and given this, the national park has rejected the application. However, there is no increase to the footprint of the property, no residential accommodation on the ground floor, so there is no greater risk of flooding than what is there at present. Indeed, NRW saw no reason to object to the application.
I'll also take this opportunity to once again stress that businesses located along the Towy river on Carmarthen's quay have also faced frustration with a lack of priority given to protecting businesses and economic interests from flooding. Minister, both these issues demonstrate an imbalance in planning regulations, where viable and successful businesses are penalised for trying to invest and make improvements. Therefore, can I urge you to encourage planning authorities to drop the more rigid approach to implementing planning guidance and undertake a more pragmatic approach? Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Well, thank you, and, obviously, I can't comment on individual planning applications—I don't have all of the detail and it wouldn't be appropriate for me as the planning Minister—but I do take the point you're making. I mean, there are a number of things to consider when developing on a floodplain, which is what you're describing, of course, right next to a river. I mean, I'll take this opportunity, Llywydd, to say that I'm delighted that the First Minister has agreed to chair a summit on the phosphate and building on floodplain issue that is a real issue right across Wales, and that that summit will take place on the first day of the Royal Welsh Show in July, and he will chair that with a number of experts and stakeholders coming together in that summit, to try and find a mutually acceptable way forward that will require compromise on all sides, but we absolutely need to get to the bottom of what is a very difficult issue in very large parts of Wales. So, I take that opportunity to make that announcement, and I'm delighted that he's agreed to do that.
What we will also be doing is looking, as part of these reviews, to see whether things like what the planning guidance is for floodplain development and so on can be reviewed, whether things like not developing at the ground floor and developing above are a solution or aren't. And, to be honest, that's really complicated, it's not just about the flooding, it's also about if you put residential in there, you're putting sewage and water and so on in there, you're putting extra surface drainage and so on, even if the footprint doesn't increase, so there's a whole issue about the resilience of the systems around that, and that's what the phosphate issue is about and so on. So, I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated.
But I do understand the frustration entirely. One of the other things we're looking into—. I suspended the technical advice note 15 implementation. One of the reasons that we did that was we wanted to look again at what is the impact of flood defences when they're put in place in river catchment areas, whether they should then allow the development further downstream or not and in what circumstances, what level of flood defence do you need, what does it protect against and so on, because our major cities and conurbations across Wales and many of our thriving market towns and other settlements are built on the coast on the mouth of a river, because that's where the trade happens and so on. That poses big problems for us. We don't want, obviously, to sterilise the development of those vibrant cities, towns and settlements right across Wales, but at the same time we need to both protect them from the climate emergency and from the day-to-day hazards of flooding, and we need to protect our rivers from the phosphate and nitrate problems that we have. So, it's a really complicated problem. We are looking at various aspects of it, and I'm delighted the First Minister will be chairing that summit in the Royal Welsh.

Heledd Fychan AS: Minister, I very much welcome this and what's been achieved through the co-operation agreement. I certainly welcome also the appointment of Professor Evans, and I look forward as an elected Member to contributing to that. I was reassured by your commitment—because, obviously, we haven't seen the terms of reference as Members yet—that the voices and experiences of those victims will be able to feed into this process. That's very welcome.
I should support Janet Finch-Saunders in terms of the independent inquiry comment she made, as I was the instigator of that petition in a different role. This is different to that petition, in being a review, but, obviously, there is much to welcome that we are now finally being able to work in collaboration to ensure that lessons are learnt to inform the future, because, after all, it's not about apportioning blame, but ensuring communities feel safe in their homes, and businesses are secure in the future.
I just wanted to ask for clarification on one matter. You've mentioned the section 19 report, and as you'll be aware not all section 19 reports have been published yet, and also, where they have been published, residents aren't necessarily content with those reports. Also, flood investigation reports are currently not required to be published, so will those also feed into this review so that those are considered so that we also consider how we are completely transparent about these reports in the future?

Julie James AC: Yes, so all the reports, published or not, will be available to the review. The review is obviously subject to confidentiality and so on, but they will be subject to the review, absolutely. One of the things I expect to come out of the review is better guidelines about when, how and where the section 19 reports should be produced, possibly a timescale, although I don't want to prejudge it in any way, and there are issues with timescales, because I personally would like people to get it right, as well as fast. So, we'll see what the review brings, but I expect that clarity to be brought as a result of it.
There are more issues, so NRW actually produced some reports over that winter—they haven't got to do that, so there's a query whether they ought to have done it or whether they should do it; there are some issues there as well. Other authorities involved, the water authorities and other authorities, also didn't produce reports or did produce reports, so I expect the review to have a look at that landscape and see where we get.
Again, the committee that's looking at the regulatory framework for this is also looking to see whether all of these regulations put responsibility in the right place, on the right agency and so on. So, again, I'm desperately trying not to prejudge any of this, but, clearly, at the moment Welsh Government, local authorities and water companies and other responders all have some responsibility. Is that right? Does that work? We're expecting the committee to be able to make some recommendations to us about whether it does and how to embed it if it's right, and, if it's not right, what to do about it. So, I look forward to that.
And then, in terms of the public confidence in the reports, obviously the review will be looking at that. Siân Gwenllian and I had a very good meeting with Professor Evans and she's asked for some time to have a look at the scope of this—it's a lot of reports to look at—and also to consider what secretariat she needs and what back-up she needs. She's going to come back to us, I think within the month is what we agreed, to give us a better at least wet finger in the wind about what that might look like, although I don't want to hold her to that; I'm very keen to have it done properly rather than swiftly—within, obviously, parameters; we don't want it to take a decade. So, I'm hoping that she will come back, and I have every confidence she will. She undertook a report in my own constituency, if the Llywydd will forgive me for segueing into that for one moment, which is very complicated and highly controversial in the community, and she did a splendid job very independently and robustly of that. So, I look forward to a very similar approach on this.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister, and I'd also like to place on record my thanks to you for the work that you've done to date to work with communities to reduce vulnerability to the increased risk of flooding that we see as a result of climate change and for your announcement of over £71 million, the largest ever package of investment in Wales to reduce flood risk.
In your statement, you referred to section 19 investigations enabling local authorities to improve data models. I'd like to seek some clarification here as to who is responsible for building and maintaining these data models. My understanding was that this fell under the remit of Natural Resources Wales, so I'd welcome some further explanation on that.
Secondly, I'd like to raise the issue that, during the storms of 2020, some communities, such as Cynon Valley, experienced devastating flooding from rivers for which there was no previous data held. In my discussions with NRW, I've been told that this absence of data is a complete barrier to being able to build a case to successfully bid for flood defences. So, I'd like to ask what work is being done by Welsh Government to ensure these communities are not at a disadvantage in gaining protection from future flooding when the existence of prior data is currently key to working up a successful case for flood defence funding.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much for that, Vikki, and thank you for your kind words. So, part of what we're looking at is who is responsible for which bit of this, where does the data come from, who is responsible for collating and holding it and so on, and, as I said, we've got a number of split responsibilities. It may well be that it comes back with, 'That's good, but you need to do x, y, z', or, 'That's not good and it should be with a particular agency.' So, that is one of the things that we want to have a look at. And also, at the moment, a section 19 report informs the work of the authority that produces it: should it be wider than that? What are the lessons to be learnt across boundaries and all that kind of thing? And then, the last one is: what is the role of the local community in feeding that in? They're not experts, but they have lived experience of it. So, we expect, in the various reviews that are undertaken, those issues will come back out to us as part of that.
And then I have had a really good conversation with NRW about what's called the baseline review of the work that they do, to go through all of the resources currently available to them, where they're currently deployed, whether that's optimal or not and how they can be redeployed towards our priorities, and we're doing a piece of work about how their funding works in terms of income and so on, which I hope to report on to the Senedd later in the summer, which I think will clarify some of those issues as well.

Finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch. Minister, thank you for your statement today. I have the fortune of representing the beautiful town or village of Llanfair Talhaearn in Clwyd West, but, unfortunately, that is a community that has experienced flooding on five occasions since 2008. On each of those occasions, there have been reports and investigations and recommendations made, including recommendations in 2012 to undertake some capital investment on the flood defences in that community. They're only just now implementing the second phase of those recommendations and the works that need to be done. It's 10 years on, Minister, and, in that intervening period, that community has been flooded again, most recently, of course, in early 2020, in February 2020. What action is the Welsh Government going to take through this review and anything that comes out of it to make sure that, when recommendations are made to improve defences, they're actually delivered in a timely manner, not a decade? You said you don't want this review to take a decade to do its work; I don't want NRW to be taking a decade to implement much-needed improvements to flood defences in villages like Llanfair Talhaearn in the future.

Julie James AC: Yes, well, I'm glad it's happening now, anyway, Darren Millar, and it is very beautiful, you're quite right, and I'm very glad for the residents that that flood defence is going ahead. So, part of the announcement I've just made is the announcement of the increased funding for capital works, differences when working with our local authorities to make sure that we have a priority set of works that need to go ahead, and they'll be informed by the various reports that come out.
We also, as part of the TAN 15 pause and review, have asked all the local authorities in Wales to produce a serious flood containment assessment. So, it will assess the risk in their area and it will put forward a programme over the next 20 or so years of flood defences and other natural flood mitigation, risks and so on, to enable the security of people in their homes and also additional development where that's necessary or appropriate. So, I hope that we've improved that very significantly. I don't know why it took 10 years—I don't have enough information to be able to comment on that—but I think what I've announced today will significantly improve both the pipeline of flood programmes and the ability of the local authority to both assess the priority need and put those in place.

I thank the Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Update on Ukraine

The next statement, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Social Justice, an update on Ukraine, and I call on the Minister to make the statement. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to provide an update to Members on our ongoing work to support Ukrainians hoping to find sanctuary in Wales. In the two weeks since I last provided an oral statement on this matter, we've welcomed many new neighbours and friends from Ukraine. The UK Government has begun to publish Homes for Ukraine scheme arrivals data for the first time and, as of 10 May, Wales had welcomed 1,126 Ukrainians, in addition to those arriving under the Ukraine family scheme, and it is our privilege to be able to provide sanctuary to each and every one of those arriving.
I want to thank local government for the truly outstanding work they're doing to prepare for and support these arrivals. The sheer scale of property inspections, safeguarding checks and resolution of novel issues that they have undertaken has been remarkable. And we are seeing improvements in the average time the UK Government takes to consider and approve visas, but there are still problems with the way the system operates, not least the inability for grouped family applications to be submitted, meaning that sometimes large groups are prevented from travelling because only one visa is missing. I've raised this with the UK Minister for Refugees and have been assured that this will also be improved shortly.
We are pleased to see over 1,000 Ukrainians arrive in Wales, but three times that number have had visas approved. We're monitoring this closely and seeking to understand the reasons why people are not arriving in greater numbers and if there are other barriers preventing travel that we may be able to address.
We remain concerned about the safeguarding risks presented by informal social media matching for the Homes for Ukraine scheme. We're continuing to urge Welsh households who wish to be sponsors to be matched via reputable organisations such as Reset or to approach their local authority, and we continue to work closely with local authorities and across UK nations on these crucial issues.
Last week we contacted all Welsh households who'd expressed an interest in the Homes for Ukraine scheme to ask if they were still interested in taking part but had not yet found a match. We've had a very positive response so far, and we'll be working with local government to ensure those offers can be checked to form a source of safe accommodation offers. These can be used where initial placements come to an end and as secondary destinations once each family is ready to move on from a welcome centre.
For those who've already arrived in Wales, we recently announced the extension of our free public transport offer. Initially, we were able to offer free rail travel to Ukrainians and newly granted refugees; however, last week we were able to announce the free bus travel welcome ticket, where participating bus companies will also provide this offer. The list of participating bus companies can be found by searching for 'welcome ticket' at gov.wales. And I want to thank every bus company that's joined this scheme, and I also encourage others to do so, so that we can ensure Ukrainians and refugees in all parts of Wales can benefit.
In addition, we've been able to announce Cadw’s free entry scheme to their sites across Wales. Cadw had already been supporting our nation of sanctuary vision for a number of years through free supported visits for asylum seekers. However, a free entry offer has now been expanded to ensure any sanctuary seeker in Wales can benefit.
We have encountered some difficult challenges since we started to welcome people fleeing the conflict and we're working through these as quickly and carefully as we can. I'm aware that some children arriving have not yet been able to join their new classmates in school. We're attempting to minimise risks of multi-drug-resistant TB, which remains a public health threat in Ukraine, by providing TB screening for all arrivals. The chief medical officer has published revised advice, recommending that primary school age children can start school prior to screening due to the low risk. The advice remains that secondary school age children should be screened before starting school, and this is being kept under review as we gather more data about prevalence through the screening programme.
We're working closely with universities and colleges to ensure English language tuition is made available as broadly as possible. We're seeking to utilise the regional ESOL assessment central hub, or REACH model in conjunction with other agencies at the welcome centres to ensure individuals can be assessed and the right level of intervention provided. I know that the University of South Wales and Rhondda Cynon Taf council have already started informal ESOL classes to run through the summer period, and we're bringing together local authorities and universities across Wales to widen this approach.
Finally, we are working closely with third sector organisations to ensure that as people arrive we have avenues for advice and support available to them. I'm now chairing a working group to co-ordinate efforts with the third sector, including violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence services, and we're working to secure partners who can provide advice and advocacy services soon. Over the weekend we saw a very positive example of this partnership working with the third sector, as I was delighted that we could work closely with Citizens UK Cymru to bring 18 Ukrainians into Wales together. Further work will take place in the coming days and weeks.

Mark Isherwood AC: In your update on Welsh Government support for Ukraine last Thursday, you referred to the latest UK Government figures, which stated that, as of 10 May, 3,300 visas have been issued to people from Ukraine to come to Wales via the Homes for Ukraine scheme, which is up 1,000 in just a fortnight, of which 1,300 were sponsored by the Welsh Government, up 630 in just a fortnight. Overall, a total of 132,900 Ukraine scheme visa applications have now been received, with 120,300 visas issued, up from 73.2 per cent to 77 per cent in a fortnight, and 46,100 total arrivals for visa holders in the UK, up from 23 per cent to 34.6 per cent in a fortnight. You state that 1,126 people with sponsors have now arrived in Wales, in addition to those arriving under the Ukraine family scheme. What therefore is your understanding of how many have arrived in Wales in total so far under both schemes? And notwithstanding the gradually improving figures, what further specific discussions have you had with the UK Minister for Refugees about the reasons for the gap between numbers of visas issued and total arrivals, and what is being done to address this?
Last Thursday, Members received a British Red Cross briefing on Ukraine, with recommended actions. How do you respond to their statements that, as refugees settle into Wales, monitoring the welfare and safety of refugees longer term will be crucial? Therefore, in the Welsh Government's role as a supersponsor under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, they said, it's important that assurances are made around safeguarding support to ensure that there is a role for local authorities in monitoring ongoing support around the welfare of Ukrainians as they settle in Wales. And they said that, 'While support to date is welcome, we want to minimise the risk of embedding a two-tiered system for refugees in Wales and the UK, which would mean treating people differently based on the way they arrived.' The proposed changes, they said, could leave people without access to vital support.
Responding to you two weeks ago, I also referred to figures showing a huge variation in the number of visas issued across local authorities in Wales. What is your understanding of the comparative position now, a fortnight later, and, notwithstanding the obvious differences in population size, what is your understanding of the reasons for this range and how are you targeting support at a local level, if a disparity still exists?
Responding to you two weeks ago, I asked how you were working with ministerial colleagues to ensure that school places and local GP and NHS services are available to Ukrainian refugees when they arrive in Wales. You responded stating:
'It's crucial in terms of education that children can obtain admission to schools, and, indeed, also, I have to say, to the health service, to their GPs, to the health checks that are under way. This is monitored on a daily basis.'
However, I subsequently contacted you on behalf of a constituent who had a Ukrainian refugee family arriving the following morning under the Homes for Ukraine scheme, who had been told by the local authority's school admissions that the family's primary school age child could not start education until she'd had a medical from the GP, as directed by the Welsh Government. They had been told by the GP they'd registered the family with that they refused to do a medical, knew nothing of this requirement and did not have the capacity. May I thank you for your very prompt response to this, in which you stated that officials were following up with the admissions officer in the local authority to confirm that, providing the child is well, they do not need to wait for a health assessment to be able to attend school; that the requirement to delay attendance relates specifically to TB screening; that primary school age children can attend if they're well, but secondary school age children do need an assessment and chest x-ray with the health board TB teams in advance of attending school; and that regarding the position relayed to the family from the GP practice, you have asked health officials to follow up on that with the health board as a matter of urgency?
Well, the constituent subsequently told me that school admissions had contacted them to say that primary school age children can now attend school, and thanked you and me for this. However, they added,
'I'm not sure of the process of her attending if her year group is full, which we've been told it is.'
How, therefore, are you working with colleagues to ensure that this capacity issue is addressed? And finally, how will you now ensure that local authority and health services across Wales understand your expectations of them?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. You've repeated the data that I gave in the statement. I think it is very encouraging that, at long last, last week, the UK Government agreed to provide data on a local authority by local authority basis, and we could then identify, as you said, that 1,126 Ukrainian refugees have come via the Homes for Ukraine scheme—some of whom will be in our welcome centres, some with host sponsors. But, also recognising that there are still many more visas that have been approved. I said that in my statement as well—at least three times that number.
I meet with the Minister for Refugees, Lord Harrington, every fortnight. I met him on Thursday with my colleague Neil Gray, the Scottish Government Minister. We have three things on the agenda: we have visa delays, we have safeguarding, we have funding. We obviously add other things as well, as they come through. But they are very constructive meetings. And we have the evidence, I have much evidence, not just from my own casework but from many from across this Chamber, of these unacceptable delays between visa approval and arrival. So, that is the UK Government's responsibility and they have got to overcome it. But, progress is being made, as you will know, in terms of the numbers.
It's good that you had that briefing from the British Red Cross, particularly in relation to our role as a supersponsor. This is something where we've committed to supporting 1,000 people, skipping the need to identify an individual sponsor and being sponsored directly by the Welsh Government. And as of 10 May, we have got 1,317 visas that have been granted to Ukrainians—more than 1,000—under this route. So, we awaited 24/7, with weekend work—I mentioned Citizens UK Cymru—their arrival. We arranged the transport, working with Citizens UK Cymru, and at Luton Airport, the families arrived. It's tremendous when those partnerships work, but we have so much more to do to move that forward.
I think your point about safeguarding and the welcome centres, the work that we do, is crucial. When they get to the welcome centres, everyone's there to help support. Translation services are available. There are opportunities to start learning English—we've talked about ESOL—registration with GPs, children starting at school and help with money, welfare benefits and advice with finding work. All of this is on our sanctuary website. There's so much guidance and information constantly being updated. And safeguarding is crucial, as you know, and that's why welcome centres are the safest way to support Ukrainians fleeing conflict, rather than—. I've raised our concerns about any kind of route to informal social media matches. Obviously, the hosts, much of this is working very well with Homes for Ukraine, but it's important to look at our safeguarding and modern slavery guidance.
Finally, yes, this is a cross-Government issue. We have a weekly meeting—we've got one tomorrow morning—with ministerial colleagues. Education, health, local government, housing, we're all working—. Transport. We're all working together addressing these issues. I'm obviously co-ordinating this. You've mentioned that important case that I was very glad to respond to, Mark, as quickly as possible. These early days, local government—. I've praised local government for what they're doing. They are also getting guidance, they are managing it, admissions, and these are operational issues that we are working together on. I'm looking forward, with the Minister for Finance and Local Government, to meeting our new set of leaders very shortly to discuss. But, operationally, of course, we're working with chief executives.
And now, children. I had a wonderful message from a young refugee who's been waiting to get into school in my constituency, who messaged me personally last night to say, 'It is wonderful to feel I'm in school. I'm a teenager, I'm learning, it's wonderful.' This will happen to the children as they come through, and local government is committed to making that work.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for your statement, Minister. There was a report in the Guardian recently that some refugees from Ukraine that have come to the United Kingdom were having to wait up to two years before being able to receive specialist therapy to help them deal with the atrocities that they have faced as a result of the war. We, of course, can't imagine the pressure on these people who've seen such things, who have felt such pain, anxiety and uncertainty, who've lost their homes, their careers, the future that they had planned for themselves, and, of course, who've lost loved ones, friends, neighbours and who have, unfortunately, suffered violence and sexual violence.
The chaos and the delays of weeks while they wait for visas or means to travel to the UK also cause and intensify mental health issues for those who find themselves in a situation of such stress and anxiety. The report noted that services across the United Kingdom were piecemeal in nature, with some areas described by the charity Room to Heal, which provides support to people who have fled persecution, as deserts in terms of the availability of treatment for trauma. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has also stated that the plans that are in place to welcome refugees should have included a mechanism to identify the signs of trauma early on.
We know, of course, that the whole experience of fleeing from war will have a particularly harmful impact on children, to the point where it could even change their personalities and cause long-term psychological harm. Again, Save the Children has stated that there is a lack of mental health support available to children who have been severely traumatised and who are arriving here from Ukraine. Beyond being able to access NHS care, officials at the Department of Health and Social Care in England haven't referred to any specific provision to offer trauma support to refugees who have just arrived on our shores.
The Welsh Refugee Council has noted that the major concern of those who arrive here having fled is the level and type of support available to them to be able to access public services,such as mental health treatment. And it's estimated that there are waiting times of up to two years at present in some parts of the United Kingdom, as I said.
So, could the Minister tell us what the situation is in Wales regarding the support available to facilitate access to specialist services like these? What mental health services for trauma support, in particular, are currently available in Wales for those fleeing Ukraine, beyond general access to NHS care? And, could the Minister also provide figures for the waiting times and lists for mental health and trauma services, please? Could we, in Wales, commit additional funding to our mental health services to cope with increased demand, and ensure that those who have suffered trauma because of war receive appropriate treatment? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned. It's really important, this point about how we can be ready to support, recognising the trauma that so many have experienced. You talked about children. All of us know that the vast majority of refugees who are coming are women and children. Those who have met them, or who are meeting with them, know what they have been through—the trauma that they have been through.
Because we have got this 24/7 contact centre, and we have got our welcome centres, which, as I have said, is the safest way to actually then get stuck into not just the welcome centre, the support services, but all the arrangements in terms of referrals, et cetera—. So, we are working very hard with our staff, Public Health Wales, putting together a particular package of support, not just for those who are coming, but also for the staff who are supporting them. That, of course, means that we need to have interpreters, translation, which is all available as well.
So, in Wales, of course, we do have the Welsh Government's 2018 guidance for health boards on the health and well-being of asylum seekers and refugees. That's Wales specific. We translated all materials into Ukrainian and Russian to support the mental health of those arriving from Ukraine—initial stabilisation. That's on the Traumatic Stress Wales website. Also the Royal College of Psychiatry is publishing specific support materials to help with them. That's all on the Traumatic Stress Wales website; again, it's good to be able to share that with colleagues here today.
But we also, of course, have our core mental health helpline in Wales. That's available to support those arriving in Wales. It's got a language line, so it can actually help people who want to access it in a language other than English and Welsh. We are assessing needs, clearly, in terms of additional needs.
We are exploring options to provide additional mental health and well-being support at the welcome centres. That's about focusing on signposting, stabilisation, working with the third sector. All health screening will include mental health, and I can assure you that access to specialist mental health services will be available in line with need.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I, too, thank the Minister for her leadership, and of course the leadership of the Counsel General? I think that I speak on behalf of all of the Chamber when I say that we are very grateful for what you have done on this issue, and we are also very grateful to you for continuously updating the Chamber orally as well. Minister, given our commitment as a nation of sanctuary, can you outline to the Members of the Senedd today just how the third sector has supported and worked with volunteers, and those fleeing Ukraine?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jack Sargeant. As I have said, this is very much a cross-Government response. Co-ordination is particularly important, not just in terms of cross-Government and all of our responsibilities, but inter-Government with the UK Government and the Scottish Government, and also with local government as well. But the third sector is already playing a huge role and a huge part.
I brought together a group of voluntary third sector organisations. We met on Thursday. There are about 25 organisations now, which include the Red Cross. For example, on Thursday, we had a presentation from Community Foundation Wales—Richard Williams—about the new Croeso fund, which we've developed. Jonathan Cox from Citizens UK Cymru talked about the work that they've done, working with a non-governmental organisation in Poland and how they brought refugees on the weekend. And then in north Wales, there's Tim Hall from Link International. They are working very closely with us as they've got huge experience in terms of issues around trafficking and sexual exploitation. They're looking at and feeding back issues about host and guest issues—there are some breakdowns there—and the need for secondary placements. So, that's the sort of feedback that we were discussing on Thursday. But also, we're looking at, with those organisations, what role can they play. The Wales Council for Voluntary Action, the children's commissioner, Barnardo's and the Welsh Refugee Council are all there.
But I would just say—and it picks up something that Sioned raised earlier on—that I also invited BAWSO and Welsh Women's Aid to that meeting, because of the concerns that had been raised in my last statement about the trauma that so many women have come from. But also, there has been exploitation, particularly on borders, with people waiting to come here, and, sadly, some incidents here on arriving. They gave a very full presentation on Thursday at the meeting.
It's vital that volunteers who are coming forward look to the Volunteering Wales website. Please look under 'Ukraine'; there's a whole category to help volunteers discover their roles. I had a drop-in event on Saturday in my constituency, and volunteers came, as well as councillors and sponsor families and refugees, and there were volunteers coming who want to offer English language classes, who want to engage and support families. So, let's also put that message out today. I'm having this as the first item on the agenda at the third sector partnership council this week.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement? It was very welcome. Thank you for your commitment to this cause. I know you're doing a huge amount in this regard. You've answered some of my key questions, which were about education and screening. They were captured well and I thank you for the deeper understanding of the situation we seem to be facing. But I am having constituents who are contacting me quite often now about some of these concerns. There seems to be, perhaps, a lack of communication back to them to help them understand why some of these things might be happening. Perhaps that's an area, together with the education Minister, that you could look at—trying to articulate better for those people who are helping to look after those children. I had one constituent who has had a Ukrainian child with them now for a month. They've gone through all of the screening and they have a place in school, but they're still unable to access school for some reason—again, a communication issue, I'm sure. But, Minister, you've answered my questions around screening and why the difference between primary and secondary. I thank you for that and thank you for the work that's going on.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Peter Fox. Can I just say again that it is the local authorities who have got to take the responsibility in terms of admissions to schools? They've got clear guidance. Obviously, therefore, in terms of that contact, you are important as a bridge to make that contact happen.

Heledd Fychan AS: Can I thank you, Minister, for the regularity of these briefings? Obviously, it is a fast-moving situation, and I think that is reflected with the response and regularity here. I just wanted to reference two things briefly. It was obviously great to see the emphasis with English language tuition; what does this mean in terms of access to Welsh language immersion as well? Because obviously families will be all over Wales. Some will, hopefully, as we've seen with different people coming to Wales in the past, be immersed in the Welsh language, as we saw with the Urdd. So, just a question in terms of that bilingual welcome and opportunity.
Also, I just wanted to raise the issue of people without passports currently in Ukraine. I have been contacted by a number of people who are trying to support those. Obviously, the UK Government is placing a big emphasis that people must have passports in order to be able to come here, whereas other countries are not placing that same restriction. Obviously, if you're fleeing a war, being able to take all your documents is not something that's quite as easy, and also some people may not have had passports in the first place and aretrying to secure those now. So, I just wanted to ask: what support is Welsh Government currently providing in assisting those without a passport for a whole array of reasons in Ukraine so that they are able to reach here safely?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Heledd. Those are very important questions, which are being worked on at the moment, about access to language support. I've given some detail already in terms of ESOL, trying to ensure that this is an FE, HE, cross-Wales response. But just for example in terms of the welcome centres, there's been also contact with ColegauCymru as well as local authorities to look at provision. In terms of reach-out for language pathways to support refugees to integrate, this does include access to Welsh, and for the children as well. I think the other thing that is happening that is really good is that there are refugees arriving with very good language skills who are already—and I think we've heard this from colleagues—actually getting jobs in helping in terms of being able to interpret and start working in terms of teaching support.
I think the point for us has got to be flexibility—we want to have as much flexibility once people arrive here—and discretion. That may be the case in terms of qualifications, access. That's our message to local authorities—that they need to be as open and use their discretion as much as possible. And this of course applies to all of the other issues in terms of biometrics et cetera. If I see that there are barriers emerging, I will raise this with the Minister for Refugees. This is not acceptable. Yes, we know where we are with the visas, but we should have no other barriers. People can't access references and all these issues. They've got to be able to get through straight away to access their needs without necessarily—. I mean, they've fled conflict and war, and that's the situation. I can give you my assurance that if there are barriers, I will be raising them, but if the barriers are here, we should be overcoming them.

Russell George AC: Minister, a family in my own constituency have hosted a Ukrainian family, and all are settling in well, apart from one particular issue, which is that this family are struggling to be reunited with their pets. There's a serious issue here because the little girl involved has special needs and is very much in need of being with those pets. It really is a serious issue, because they're actually considering leaving Wales as a result. It really is a serious matter. But as I understand, the three cats in question are in quarantine in Lancashire, and are being moved somewhere else in England for quarantine, despite the fact that they've passed all their antibodies and appropriate tests. I can see Janet Finch-Saunders agreeing with me, and I know other families in Ukraine have also experienced the same issue as well.
As I understand it, the UK Government has relaxed rules for bringing in pets from Ukraine to support families fleeing that war zone, and it's paying for all the relevant checks that need to be undertaken as well, but there seems to be, for some reason, a different policy position in Wales than there is to England and Scotland. So, for this family, if they were hosted in England or Scotland, their pets would have now been reunited with them already. I think this particular story has hit the Welsh media this afternoon, and it's my understanding that a Welsh Government spokesperson has said this is to protect animal welfare in Wales. But there seems to be no logical reason why there should be a different approach taken in Wales than there is from England and Scotland.
After I've sat down, I will send you the specific details, Minister, but I'd be grateful if you could ask your officials to examine this, not only for this family, but for other families from Ukraine trying to establish themselves here in Wales, and wanting to be reunited with their pets.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Russell George. We do understand how important people's pets are to them and so we want to do everything we can to ensure that people who are seeking refuge in Wales are reunited—you've given one example—with their pets because they have been in quarantine. This is something, again, that I raised at a three-nations meeting last Thursday, and we're going to put this on the agenda when we meet again with the Ministers to look at how we're handling this. But I just have to say that we're in consultation with not just UK Government, but Public Health Wales, the Animal and Plant Health Agency and our local authorities about how we can best support those who bring pets with them. Obviously, it is about safeguarding animal and public health. I just need to say that, before arriving, Ukrainians should contact the Animal and Plant Health Agency. And, of course, our contact centre, 24/7, is dealing with these issues, and we have been supporting refugees to ensure that their pets can come with them.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Gweinidog, I'm going to raise school admissions also, because I've been contacted by constituents from Cardiff and also the Vale of Glamorgan. They've contacted their local authorities, they've contacted schools, and they've just had no replies, or no information, or just simply saying the school that they wanted, the closest school that they want to attend, is full. Before being elected here, I used to deal fairly regularly on a pro-bono basis with schools admissions and, surprisingly, the law is probably unnecessarily complicated in this matter. But overall, where there is a will, there is a legal way to ensure that every Ukrainian child gets admitted to the closest school to them. I'm glad to hear that you have provided guidance to local authorities, but, obviously, the message isn't cutting through. What further things can you do, Minister, perhaps in co-operation with the education Minister, to stress to the local authorities that these Ukrainian children need to be admitted to the closest school to their new homes? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. This is something, as I said, that's cross-Government. We're taking stock now, as arrivals come. Clearly, there are some pressures in some schools in terms of catchments, but we will be following this up, with my colleague Jeremy Miles, the education Minister. This, also, has to be local authorities taking the responsibility and making sure that there's good communication with the sponsor families and the refugees as they arrive. And getting them into school as quickly as possible is crucial, going back to the earlier questions about children and their mental health and well-being.

I thank the Minister.

8. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022

The next item, therefore, is the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move the motion—Eluned Morgan.

Motion NDM8001 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022 laid in the Table Office on 6 May 2022.

Motion moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I move the motion before us. Since the 14 April review, we've been reviewing the health data very closely to monitor any rise in figures due to an increase in social mixing over the Easter holidays. I'm pleased to announce that COVID-related hospitalisations have decreased over recent weeks. The latest results from the ONS coronavirus infection survey suggest that one in 35 people in Wales had COVID-19 for the week up to the 7 May survey.
Before us today are the latest amendment regulations, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022. The last review took place on 5 May, and the coronavirus situation is consistent with the COVID-stable scenario described in our transition plan, 'Together for a safer future'. In line with the latest public health advice, and evidence from the chief medical officer and technical advisory cell, we have decided to retain the legal restriction to require face coverings in indoor public areas of health and social care settings for another three weeks.

Eluned Morgan AC: As well as this legal requirement to wear a facial covering in public areas within health and social care settings, the current guidance for preventing COVID-19 infection also advises strongly that staff should continue to wear gloves, masks and aprons when providing personal care directly. Eye equipment should also be worn when providing personal care to people if COVID-19 has been confirmed in these individuals, or is suspected. This guidance provides a bridge between a COVID-specific approach and a wider approach of controlling respiratory viruses. This will ensure that we continue to protect the most vulnerable people in our society.
Our guidelines will continue to advise strongly that people should wear facial coverings in busy or enclosed areas, and this is part of our series of stronger advice for public health. These and other measures could work together to help to prevent and decrease the transmission of COVID, and this will keep us all safe. With a safe method of keeping each other safe and ensuring that as many as possible of those who are eligible are vaccinated, we can all, hopefully, feel optimistic about the spring and beyond, even though we will, of course, continue to be vigilant of new variants that will arise.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your update this afternoon, Minister. I am, of course, pleased to hear that hospitalisations are decreasing as well. We, as Welsh Conservatives, won't be supporting this regulation this afternoon, as we believe that the extension of this regulation and legislation is not required. If you do believe that it's appropriate for face coverings to be worn in health and social care settings, this could've been issued via guidance, rather than extending the regulation.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I didn't intend to speak, because I'm certainly happy to support this regulation, but I want to respond to the comment made by the health spokesperson of the Conservatives. I think it is completely sensible to use legislation in this restricted way. We see around us, even in this Chamber, how the use of face masks is changing and developing and is organic, and people make decisions about wearing face coverings depending on the situation around them. But when we're talking about health and care settings, where the most vulnerable people are, and where they have to go, it makes perfect sense to me that we use this means for the next period of time and for the very clear reason, to me, and therefore we are happy to approve this regulation.

The health Minister to reply.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Well, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales has been supportive of this point. I think he supports this move because he believes that, whilst the rates are still very high—so, one in 35 is still reasonably high, and, of course, this measure was taken when we were at a point when it was about one in 20, which was very high, in the community—then he is very keen to make sure that we protect the most vulnerable. Of course, we'll assess when it will be appropriate to switch between a legal framework and very strong guidance, and that will be something, of course, we will continue to keep under review. But under these circumstances and the circumstances in which we took these decisions, I would hope that people would support our position in trying to protect the most vulnerable at this very important stage when cases are very, very high in our community.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

And we now reach voting time and we'll take a short break to prepare for the vote.

Plenary was suspended at 17:33.
The Senedd reconvened at 17:36, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The vote this afternoon is on item 8, namely the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against, therefore the regulations have been agreed.

Item 8. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 5) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) Regulations 2022: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that brings us to the end of today's work.

The meeting ended at 17:37.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What is the Government doing to improve energy efficiency in homes in South Wales East?

Mark Drakeford: More than 30,000 lower income households in south-east Wales have benefited from home energy efficiency measures delivered through our Warm Homes programme since 2009. Our programme saves an average of £300 a year by improving energy efficiency.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure there are bus services linking isolated communities in the Ogmore constituency?

Mark Drakeford: We have published and are consulting on a White Paper on bus reform. It sets out the legislative changes we believe we need to make to deliver the bus services that people need in communities across Wales.

Sian Gwenllian: Will the First Minister provide an update on plans to improve health, care and wellbeing facilities in Arfon?

Mark Drakeford: As set out in the programme for government we are committed to investing in a new generation of integrated health and social care centres across Wales. These will co-locate front-line health and social care with other services.

Buffy Williams: Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact the cost-of-living crisis is having on residents in Rhondda?

Mark Drakeford: The cost-of-living crisis is affecting people across Wales, including in the Rhondda. The surge in inflation combined with higher taxes will result in real living standards decreasing and put significant pressure on households. We are doing all we can, with the powers we have, to deliver support to the most vulnerable.

Llyr Gruffydd: What analysis has the Welsh Government made of whether safe staffing levels are maintained in the health service in North Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Analysis of the health boards' maintenance of nurse staffing levels is captured in the Welsh Government's summary document of the health boards' first three-year reports under section 25E of the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016. This was last published in December 2021.

Laura Anne Jones: What steps is the Government taking to protect the integrity and safety of women’s sport in regards to gender identity?

Mark Drakeford: Sport should be a place where everyone can be themselves, where everyone can take part and where everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. The five UK sports councils worked together to develop guidance that was published in September 2021 to support the inclusion of transgender people in sport.